Massive fire in London - Grenfell Tower in Shepherds Bush

[Tarpon]

Well obviously, you told me.

Thanks. I'm now fairly convinced you could start an argument in those circumstances based on your criteria.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Thanks. I'm now fairly convinced you could start an argument in those circumstances based on your criteria.

So asking someone to start the conversation makes me the bad boy? I do, seriously, wonder about the people we have on NSC nowadays.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Thanks. I'm now fairly convinced you could start an argument in those circumstances based on your criteria.

PS: Who are you?

 

[Guinness Boy]

i dont think its simply a bad choice of words, its misinformation. not acting on findings, which could be due to a dozen reasons, is quite a significant difference from deliberatly supressing a report. it creates an impression that is not accurate, like saying the managment is outsourced to private sector when its a tenant association run not-for-profit. technically that may be private as its not a government organisation, but its certainly not what one thinks of "private landlord".

and i dont see how highlighting facts instead of heresay and innuedo is supporting the status quo, people say they want the truth.

Once again you're using turns of phrase to deflect from very real political and social issue.

Is it or is it not a fact that Gavin Barwell promised to act on the fire safety recommendations in that report you linked to and then did not? Yes or no?

Does this link state that KCTMO is a private organisation, yes or no?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...perties-have-they-worked-on-a3565311.html?amp

"Not for profit" it may be but it is also 'financially healthy' with a turnover of 17.6 million and salary bill of 7.8 million. The George Osborne edited Standard says of it "all profits ARE SAID TO BE channelled back in to investment"

And to go back to your original point the rejected bill was for all rental property anyway

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...-ensure-rented-homes-fit-for-human-habitation

Just a personal observation here but I get the impression you would have taken critics of Vlad the Impaler to task for getting the time he arrived at a village to start a purge wrong.


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[Butch Willykins]

so you could have a contractor input into the specification, after the tender has gone out? would the client accept that without confirming the change of spec meets the required standards? seems like that would put the client in a awkward position.

Absolutely, depending on the type of contract that the project is adhering to. If design and build the main contractor will lbe constantly looking to save money. Be that by screwing down the subbies or value engineering the spec. The spec will say "equal or approved" on most materials. If fire safe cladding was on the original spec then clearly what was installed here wasn't equal or approved.

and a question to clear up something from earlier reports, suggestion was the cladding creates a void through which the fire travels, is that sensible scenario?

Yes, the system installed was rainscreen cladding, sometimes called a rear ventilated facade. In its purest form rainscreen construction has been around for hundreds of years and is used extensively across Europe. It basically consists of an inner leaf, which in this case was the existing building with PIR insulation directly fixed. You then have a clear ventilated cavity of at least 25mm and then finally the outer leaf (cladding panels) which will be fixed back to the inner leaf via an aluminium bracket and rail subframe. Fire stopping should also be included at floor slab level vertically and at party walls horizontally. That fire stopping should take the form of something like a mineral wool slab with an intumescent closing strip.

If non combustible components are used, eg mineral wool insulation, correct fire barriers and fire rated decorative panels then the system is absolutely safe.

If combustible materials are used then rainscreen creates the perfect storm for rapid fire spread. Fire needs three things, an ignition source, fuel and oxygen. If a rainscreen construction uses combustible materials then you have fuel (insulation/cladding) and oxygen (vented cavity) in abundance, all you need is an ignition.

 

[Notters]

A lot of criticism being laid on the local authority for their response now but, like all councils, they've been savaged by cuts and hardly have any staff now.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Building Regulations are Builing Regulations and have to be followed regardless of whether the builing is private residential, council residential, commercial or industrial. The wealth of the occupant has no sway on these regulations. I think it will transpire that regulations in respect of rain screen cladding to high rise buildings will be found to be inadequate.

Building regs are indeed building regs BUT they are the minimum standard. When builders build for the poor they will ensure they get to that minimum standard. When they build for the rich they will exceed the standard. Building regs need to be improved to raise the minimum standard ....... of course that costs money which builders don't like having to spend ( or councils don't have ).

 

[Eeyore]

But you are one of the complete a'rses of this chat room, so come on... start.

If you thought of me as anything other than that I would start to doubt my values. Thanks for the affirmation.

 

[Steve in Japan]

Building regs are indeed building regs BUT they are the minimum standard. When builders build for the poor they will ensure they get to that minimum standard. When they build for the rich they will exceed the standard. Building regs need to be improved to raise the minimum standard ....... of course that costs money which builders don't like having to spend ( or councils don't have ).

Sunday Times article today says the cladding in question is not permitted on buildings higher than 18m. If that article is correct, building regulations have been breached, and that breach was not identified.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Housing Associations have a lot to look in the mirror at......

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/07/housing-associations-have-failed-to-build-houses/#

Seems all too easy to blame the Tory party for cuts and so forth or for that matter Labour too....

It runs deeper and covers both parties...

 

[beorhthelm]

...

thanks, very interesting, the cladding make sense now. im surprised they can change specs, in my game attempting to change specs would be met with laughter or a bill (and a bill for the time just to discuss it). seems what the spec for the material and that used will be crucial. curiously early media reports said cladding used was RS5000, then said a cheaper product used without saying specificaly what it is. as cladding of some type is on tens of thousands of buildings, a lot of buildings will be under review and may be a lot of work if they need to be refitted.

 

[Ernest]

People being given a tenner a day to try and get by on and absolute shambles with whoever is running the relief operation and Hammond just denying it despite one of the helpers in the studio saying how it is

 

[Ernest]

[tweet]876373882801991681[/tweet]

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

thanks, very interesting, the cladding make sense now. im surprised they can change specs, in my game attempting to change specs would be met with laughter or a bill (and a bill for the time just to discuss it). seems what the spec for the material and that used will be crucial. curiously early media reports said cladding used was RS5000, then said a cheaper product used without saying specificaly what it is. as cladding of some type is on tens of thousands of buildings, a lot of buildings will be under review and may be a lot of work if they need to be refitted.

Recent fires at Essex Place (cladding fitted) in Brighton have not spread,i believe (cannot find the source) that B&HCC turned down (this March) -at planning-a proposed re cladding involving the Non Fire resistant cladding of another Brighton building..

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/14749298.Terror_on_the_15th_floor_as_fire_guts_Brighton_flat/

 

[beorhthelm]

Once again you're using turns of phrase to deflect from very real political and social issue.

its not deflection from anything, sorry if you dont want to hear real information rather than allow media mis-information to perpetuate. yes, Barwell broke a promise to review the findings. yes, TMO's are private, though that doesnt tell us the full picture of them and the landlord is still the council.

if people said Vlad turned up when he was at another village, wouldnt you want to know that so you knew there were two Impalers? right now we have trial by media, and some of the information is false or contradicts and doesnt give a complete picture, we'll have a public inquiry to sort all this out but by then many "facts" will be embedded in the public conscious.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

its not deflection from anything, sorry if you dont want to hear real information rather than allow media mis-information to perpetuate. yes, Barwell broke a promise to review the findings. yes, TMO's are private, though that doesnt tell us the full picture of them and the landlord is still the council.

if people said Vlad turned up when he was at another village, wouldnt you want to know that so you knew there were two Impalers? right now we have trial by media, and some of the information is false or contradicts and doesnt give a complete picture, we'll have a public inquiry to sort all this out but by then many "facts" will be embedded in the public conscious.

Some people are very keen to blame this tragedy on austerity/the Tories before we know all the facts. It may turn out to be partly/mainly true but equally there may be other factors (individual negligence/incompetence) that turn out to be the main causes.

The opposition have a duty to hold the government to account and ask tough questions but pre judging the causes isn't responsible opposition. Kier Starmer was very good on this issue during the Marr show today refusing to endorse scoring political points (auto blame austerity/Tories) on such a serious issue.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Some people are very keen to blame this tragedy on austerity/the Tories before we know all the facts

Indeed-LABOUR people could read this (its the Gaurdian after all) as to why housing associations are as much to blame as governments and councils-published in 2014

Quite shocking really

https://www.theguardian.com/housing...ssociation-commercialism-social-homes-profits

Edit: i may just add that i know Thatcher changed the goal posts on social housing,but it was for NON profit back then,also having lived in a council property for 40 years i have nothing but praise for Brighton and hove city council and their services over that time..

 

[pb21]

Apparently, according to the Sun/Tony Parsons the fire resulted from our obsession with climate change.

 

[Notters]

Apparently, according to the Sun/Tony Parsons the fire resulted from our obsession with climate change.

View attachment 86415

Came from The Mail apparently.


www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-grenfell-tower-fire-and-the-daily-mails-green-targets-claim/amp

 

[pb21]

Came from The Mail apparently.


www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-grenfell-tower-fire-and-the-daily-mails-green-targets-claim/amp

Doesn't surprise me.