Massive fire in London - Grenfell Tower in Shepherds Bush

[The Optimist]

I agree. I am an Architectural Technologist and work on large scale residential developments for national housebuilder clients. In my 28 year career, I have only dealt with one development of apartments in which a sprinkler system was installed (at the time, the late 90's it was the first development in Surrey to include one). The only reason it was included was because it was the only way to achieve Building Regulation compliance for the design.

You have to remember that the Building Regulations set out the MINIMUM standards that buildings must be constructed to. Most developers see that as the benchmark and anything else is "guilding the lily". The current Part B documents do include references to sprinklers however they only come into play if certain other criteria cannot be met - more often than not, you can make a building safe from fire spread by applying the minimum standards.

There is also no requirement to install a communal fire alarm system - only smoke/heat detectors within individual flats - and 'stay put' policy is normal.

Most tower blocks being designed these days will include the services of a Fire Engineering Consultant to ensure that the design of a building not only complies with the regulations, but exceeds them - sometimes professional engineering not only provides a compliant solution, but can represent a saving to the developer on a design that complies with the minimum standards.

My personal view is that we will see the Building Regulations updated to make sprinkler systems mandatory. Unfortunately, it has taken a catastrophic & tragic event such as this to start the process.

Sprinklers are mandatory in buildings over 30m in height, roughly speaking this means anything with ground plus 10 floors. However this relatively recent and there is no requirement to retrospectively fit sprinklers to existing buildings over 30m in height.

 

[The Optimist]

There was no fire escape or alternative route out of the building other than the main stairwell. In new builds this wouldn't pass planning as it contravenes basic building regulations, so I'm surprised that during a renovation this wasn't addressed as a requirement. They should have been required to provide AT LEAST one alternative means of escape, in this case something like an retrofitted external staircase would have been required.

View attachment 86335

A new build residential building can de designed around a single stair and single exit. The stair is protected from smoke ingress by ventilation in the corridors. This is a standard design in accordance with Approved Document B, which is the standard fire safety guidance document.

 

[Titanic]

I am not a fan of Katie Hopkins and hesitate to post this here... but for once she seems to be on the mark with communicating the anger:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4604942/KATIE-HOPKINS-Jail-blame-Grenfell-fire.html

 

[The Clamp]

I am not a fan of Katie Hopkins and hesitate to post this here... but for once she seems to be on the mark with communicating the anger:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4604942/KATIE-HOPKINS-Jail-blame-Grenfell-fire.html

She's using real tragedy to claw back lost respect. In many ways it's more sickening and offensive than her Final Solution comment.

 

[Easy 10]

Given the fact that the Grenfell action group had been fully predicting this horrific event for months, and had raised these concerns with the council, the holding company and the local MP, heads will roll for this. Could maybe even see some corporate manslaughter charges coming out of it.

 

[nicko31]

She's using real tragedy to claw back lost respect. In many ways it's more sickening and offensive than her Final Solution comment.

Just don't click on anything she writes, she's best ignored

 

[beorhthelm]

I am not a fan of Katie Hopkins and hesitate to post this here... but for once she seems to be on the mark with communicating the anger:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4604942/KATIE-HOPKINS-Jail-blame-Grenfell-fire.html

she's projecting anger, as one would expect without apparently any appraisal of known information. but hey she's only personality columnist, not a journalist. watch Newsnight from last night, about 11pm on wards to hear about the complicated and multifaceted background, discussed rationally, rather than tabloid calls for "some one to be jailed".

 

[mikeyjh]

Given the fact that the Grenfell action group had been fully predicting this horrific event for months, and had raised these concerns with the council, the holding company and the local MP, heads will roll for this. Could maybe even see some corporate manslaughter charges coming out of it.

Hopefully one day we will be able to move away from the rampant capitalism that drives developers to do everything to the absolute minimal standards and hopefully we'll elect a government that regulates far more strongly to prevent this sort of thing.

For what it's worth £1,100 per flat was quoted by an expert this morning. £132k - Better than it's an investor's pocket than saving lives eh...

 

[LamieRobertson]

she's projecting anger, as one would expect without apparently any appraisal of known information. but hey she's only personality columnist, not a journalist. watch Newsnight from last night, about 11pm on wards to hear about the complicated and multifaceted background, discussed rationally, rather than tabloid calls for "some one to be jailed".

That muck shouldn't be on this thread

 

[The Clamp]

This has the potential to drag out for years with the blame being passed, Hillsborough fashion, between the money men down to the builders who did the work. It'll be the lowest in the food chain that gets it in the end.

In the meantime we'll have to poke up with the likes of Hopkins spouting disingenuous bullshit, miles of flowers and people praying on Facebook. Personally I think the victims deserve more than all this demonstrative "grief".

 

[Ernest]

Given the fact that the Grenfell action group had been fully predicting this horrific event for months, and had raised these concerns with the council, the holding company and the local MP, heads will roll for this. Could maybe even see some corporate manslaughter charges coming out of it.

Nothing will be done bar 'lessons will be learnt' as it goes to the very heart of the government , from the residents unable to get Legal Aid to challenge the council to May's new chief of staff sitting on a report that could have changed things whilst housing minister

 

[Bold Seagull]

Given the fact that the Grenfell action group had been fully predicting this horrific event for months, and had raised these concerns with the council, the holding company and the local MP, heads will roll for this. Could maybe even see some corporate manslaughter charges coming out of it.

Hopefully one day we will be able to move away from the rampant capitalism that drives developers to do everything to the absolute minimal standards and hopefully we'll elect a government that regulates far more strongly to prevent this sort of thing.

For what it's worth £1,100 per flat was quoted by an expert this morning. £132k - Better than it's an investor's pocket than saving lives eh...

We simply don't know yet. These cladding panels if they turn out to be the main reason the fire spread as it did, may well have their correct certification, adhere to Building Regulations, were correctly and properly installed, inspected and checked correctly. Fire rating certification is based on rigorous testing conditions, but if some unforeseen set of circumstances have been created here that couldn't be or were not tested, then the devastating consequences may not be a simple result of negligence or underfunding.

We could be looking at a worldwide collapse of part of the construction industry that has transformed buildings around the world in this way, and the inspections and rectification that may need to follow on for years to ensure this can never happen again. There may well be a negligent reason here, that firestopping wasn't adequate or simply omitted, or something wasn't done right, but it could also be something to do with the existing cladding / walls being left that created a unique set of circumstances between the new cladding and the old that wasn't predictable that accelerated this fire beyond all imaginable devastation.

 

[Springal]

Tensions appear to be running high on the ground still especially with all the press sticking microphones in everyone's faces. Potential for riots once the death count increases?

 

[The Clamp]

We simply don't know yet. These cladding panels if they turn out to be the main reason the fire spread as it did, may well have their correct certification, adhere to Building Regulations, were correctly and properly installed, inspected and checked correctly. Fire rating certification is based on rigorous testing conditions, but if some unforeseen set of circumstances have been created here that couldn't be or were not tested, then the devastating consequences may not be a simple result of negligence or underfunding.

We could be looking at a worldwide collapse of part of the construction industry that has transformed buildings around the world in this way, and the inspections and rectification that may need to follow on for years to ensure this can never happen again. There may well be a negligent reason here, that firestopping wasn't adequate or simply omitted, or something wasn't done right, but it could also be something to do with the existing cladding / walls being left that created a unique set of circumstances between the new cladding and the old that wasn't predictable that accelerated this fire beyond all imaginable devastation.

True and it's not just building materials and regs but procedures and safety measures that were/weren't in place. Only one route out, only had me exit, the ambiguity of the "stay put" advice, the configuration of smoke alarm and warning systems, the possible need for regular drills (something I don't think is in place in any such building). It's remarkable in our times of HASAW that we don't seem to have any real solid regs in place for homes, especially those owned by the council.
Basically the first time the residents get to see how they would escape in the event of a fire, is in the event of a fire. Seems mad.

Anywhere I've ever lived I've not only sussed out an escape route of fire blocked my normal exit , and tried them out.
Looking at that tower block though, my only thought would be
"If there was a fire there is no way out".
If it was a private flat there's no way I would move myself or family and pets into such a building precisely because of the fire risks but these poor souls weee mostly council and had no choice. So sad.

 

[worthingseagull123]

https://www.openrent.co.uk/property-to-rent/london/2-bed-flat-grenfell-tower-w11/168071

 

[jakarta]

It's remarkable in our times of HASAW that we don't seem to have any real solid regs in place for homes, especially those owned by the council.

Sorry to be a pedant but HASAW does not strictly apply in domestic premises, the tenants were not at work.

I am sure that other Fire Safety Regulations were in place.

Whether or not they were complied with in this instance is, of course, the main issue.

 

[The Clamp]

Sorry to be a pedant but HASAW does not strictly apply in domestic premises, the tenants were not at work.

I am sure that other Fire Safety Regulations were in place.

Whether or not they were complied with in this instance is, of course, the main issue.

I understand that, Health And Safery At Work. I probably didn't explain myself well. What I meant was that in times when our workplaces are so well covered with H&S law it's remarkable so much is left to chance in domestic buildings.

There is no way a purpose built office block of that size would have only one means of escape so I find it remarkable domestic buildings get away with it. Retro fitted external fire escapes should have been fitted.

 

[brightn'ove]

This is London 2017

I know that you mean that this seems out of place in this city, but it also is displaying the absolute best attributes of the community. It's a shame such a devastating thing has to happen for humanity to show its good side.

 

[pearl]

I understand that, Health And Safery At Work. I probably didn't explain myself well. What I meant was that in times when our workplaces are so well covered with H&S law it's remarkable so much is left to chance in domestic buildings.

There is no way a purpose built office block of that size would have only one means of escape so I find it remarkable domestic buildings get away with it. Retro fitted external fire escapes should have been fitted.

There's HHSRS .... Housing, Health and Safety rating system

 

[jakarta]

I understand that, Health And Safery At Work. I probably didn't explain myself well. What I meant was that in times when our workplaces are so well covered with H&S law it's remarkable so much is left to chance in domestic buildings.

There is no way a purpose built office block of that size would have only one means of escape so I find it remarkable domestic buildings get away with it. Retro fitted external fire escapes should have been fitted.

I'm a Professional Health & Safety consultant but as an Occupational Hygienist my area of expertise is health issues so can't really comment upon Fire Safety except to say I would have thought that there should have been an up to date Fire Risk Assessment carried out by a suitably qualified person.

Would be interested to see what that RA said.