Massive fire in London - Grenfell Tower in Shepherds Bush

[Thunder Bolt]

There is some coordination regarding what local companies can do to help.

We're just waiting to hear.

QPR have opened up Loftus Road for facilities for now.

 

[Dr. Notthenineo'clocknews]

On the flip side (ITV), Piers Morgan was going full tabloid, wildly speculating and thrashing around for someone to blame. Think I prefer the BBC approach.

Awful tragedy.

Yeah I heard and I agree with you, perhaps it was some of those she interviewed seemed to make light of it (perhaps they were in shock)

 

[Ⓩ-Ⓐ-Ⓜ-Ⓞ-Ⓡ-Ⓐ]

There was no fire escape or alternative route out of the building other than the main stairwell. In new builds this wouldn't pass planning as it contravenes basic building regulations, so I'm surprised that during a renovation this wasn't addressed as a requirement. They should have been required to provide AT LEAST one alternative means of escape, in this case something like an retrofitted external staircase would have been required.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Do residential buildings have fire alarm systems and sprinkler systems in now? As far as I'm aware they don't. Residents could install a fire alarm in there own properties and that's it. If a BMS system was installed it would need to be managed by someone, maintained etc.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-mays-chief-staff-sat-10620357

Theresa May’s new chief of staff was one of a series of housing ministers who “sat on” a report warning high-rise blocks like Grenfell Tower were vulnerable to fire for four years.

A former Chief Fire Officer and secretary of a parliamentary group on fire safety today revealed successive ministers had had damning evidence on their desks since 2013 and nothing had happened.
ADVERTISING

And the Labour MP who chairs the group said ministers had “sat on” the recommendations for almost four years.

Gavin Barwell, who was housing minister until losing his seat in last week’s election, promised to review part B of the Building Regulations 2010, which relate to fire safety, but the review never materialised.

 

[Lankyseagull]

Really quite shocked that a fire like this could happen in this day and age in this country. Just refurbished but with no sprinkler system, or at the very least fire alarms included in the fit.

I agree. I am an Architectural Technologist and work on large scale residential developments for national housebuilder clients. In my 28 year career, I have only dealt with one development of apartments in which a sprinkler system was installed (at the time, the late 90's it was the first development in Surrey to include one). The only reason it was included was because it was the only way to achieve Building Regulation compliance for the design.

You have to remember that the Building Regulations set out the MINIMUM standards that buildings must be constructed to. Most developers see that as the benchmark and anything else is "guilding the lily". The current Part B documents do include references to sprinklers however they only come into play if certain other criteria cannot be met - more often than not, you can make a building safe from fire spread by applying the minimum standards.

There is also no requirement to install a communal fire alarm system - only smoke/heat detectors within individual flats - and 'stay put' policy is normal.

Most tower blocks being designed these days will include the services of a Fire Engineering Consultant to ensure that the design of a building not only complies with the regulations, but exceeds them - sometimes professional engineering not only provides a compliant solution, but can represent a saving to the developer on a design that complies with the minimum standards.

My personal view is that we will see the Building Regulations updated to make sprinkler systems mandatory. Unfortunately, it has taken a catastrophic & tragic event such as this to start the process.

 

[symyjym]

Do residential buildings have fire alarm systems and sprinkler systems in now? As far as I'm aware they don't. Residents could install a fire alarm in there own properties and that's it. If a BMS system was installed it would need to be managed by someone, maintained etc.

It seems it is not mandatory for sprinklers systems but fire alarms are different. I don’t think leaving fire alarm as an option to fit individual ones yourself. The twist in this is that the advice to shut yourself in and not try to escape anyway, which would mean that if they had an official fire alarm system put in, the advice is basically to stay put. It looks like when a building is designed to contain a fire a main fire alarm system isn’t required? I would question though that surely with just fire containment in mind in the design, a sprinkler system would rationally be part of the safety regulations.

 

[DavidRyder]

God this is awful news. I hadn't found out until 10 mins after the fixtures came out. Perspective well and truly put in place. Hope these people get the support they'll need.

 

[symyjym]

I agree. I am an Architectural Technologist and work on large scale residential developments for national housebuilder clients. In my 28 year career, I have only dealt with one development of apartments in which a sprinkler system was installed (at the time, the late 90's it was the first development in Surrey to include one). The only reason it was included was because it was the only way to achieve Building Regulation compliance for the design.

You have to remember that the Building Regulations set out the MINIMUM standards that buildings must be constructed to. Most developers see that as the benchmark and anything else is "guilding the lily". The current Part B documents do include references to sprinklers however they only come into play if certain other criteria cannot be met - more often than not, you can make a building safe from fire spread by applying the minimum standards.

There is also no requirement to install a communal fire alarm system - only smoke/heat detectors within individual flats - and 'stay put' policy is normal.

Most tower blocks being designed these days will include the services of a Fire Engineering Consultant to ensure that the design of a building not only complies with the regulations, but exceeds them - sometimes professional engineering not only provides a compliant solution, but can represent a saving to the developer on a design that complies with the minimum standards.

My personal view is that we will see the Building Regulations updated to make sprinkler systems mandatory. Unfortunately, it has taken a catastrophic & tragic event such as this to start the process.

Thanks. So in these flats they have gone for minimum standard of fire containment, similar to the water containment for the Titanic and not providing enough lifeboats.

It's also the "stay where you are and shut the door message" that makes the safety procedures absurd which negates the requirement of fire alarms.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

I used to get off at Latimer Road and worked half a mile away at Monsoon Accessorize HQ when I lived in Camden. I saw that block of flats every day.

 

[brightn'ove]

This isn't the time or the place

You're damn right.

 

[Rod Marsh]

I agree. I am an Architectural Technologist and work on large scale residential developments for national housebuilder clients. In my 28 year career, I have only dealt with one development of apartments in which a sprinkler system was installed (at the time, the late 90's it was the first development in Surrey to include one). The only reason it was included was because it was the only way to achieve Building Regulation compliance for the design.

You have to remember that the Building Regulations set out the MINIMUM standards that buildings must be constructed to. Most developers see that as the benchmark and anything else is "guilding the lily". The current Part B documents do include references to sprinklers however they only come into play if certain other criteria cannot be met - more often than not, you can make a building safe from fire spread by applying the minimum standards.

There is also no requirement to install a communal fire alarm system - only smoke/heat detectors within individual flats - and 'stay put' policy is normal.

Most tower blocks being designed these days will include the services of a Fire Engineering Consultant to ensure that the design of a building not only complies with the regulations, but exceeds them - sometimes professional engineering not only provides a compliant solution, but can represent a saving to the developer on a design that complies with the minimum standards.

My personal view is that we will see the Building Regulations updated to make sprinkler systems mandatory. Unfortunately, it has taken a catastrophic & tragic event such as this to start the process.

Thanks for the response.

 

[junior]

I used to get off at Latimer Road and worked half a mile away at Monsoon Accessorize HQ when I lived in Camden. I saw that block of flats every day.

....

 

[Curious Orange]

God this is awful news. I hadn't found out until 10 mins after the fixtures came out. Perspective well and truly put in place. Hope these people get the support they'll need.

Absolutely, I hope that people will look at the recent terrorist incidents in a new light too - the numbers who died in this fire could well be significant, though let us hope not.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Perhaps we should all think about our safety a lot more in as much as do you have a Fire Extinguisher in your home or car ? What about a Smash Glass Hammer and knife (cut the seatbelts) what about smoke alarm ? Power surge or that power box that trips out ?

 

[Leekbrookgull]

So Lanky we can have a school with plenty of rooms and people and when the Fire Bell goes its all out wherever you are and yet tower block plenty of rooms and people doesn't need a central Fire Bell ?

 

[whitelion]

Now reporting 12 dead confirmed with a significant number unaccounted for. Number not given.

 

[pearl]

Now reporting 12 dead confirmed with a significant number unaccounted for. Number not given.

just heard that too

 

[clapham_gull]

If anyone wants to donate money this is how I have been suggested to do so.

https://thekandcfoundation.com/donate/

I work just opposite and we were all emailed this earlier. PM me if you want further guarantee.

 

[Lankyseagull]

So Lanky we can have a school with plenty of rooms and people and when the Fire Bell goes its all out wherever you are and yet tower block plenty of rooms and people doesn't need a central Fire Bell ?

Yes. That just about sums it up.

The thing is that with a school, which I believe is classed as an 'assembly' building, you have a collection of rooms that exit onto a common corridor - there are generally no other rooms contained within a classroom. With a flat, you have a number of rooms with different functions which are arranged around a protected hallway within the flat (i.e. the walls and doors around the hall all perform to a minimum of 30 minutes fire resistance if the doors are closed), the main entrance door to the flat is required to be 60 minutes fire resistant. Effectively this means that a fire can be first contained within the room it breaks out in and then within the confines of the flat and this gives the occupants sufficient time to escape. Providing all doors are closed, the fire should be contained for at least 90 minutes allowing fire brigade to arrive and deal with the situation, including arranging evacuation of the whole building, without being impeded by dozens of people all moving in the opposite direction to them, hence the 'stay put' directive.

 

[symyjym]

It's the sort of disaster we expect to see in a poor third world country.