Malaysian airline crash

[Creaky]

I am not ignoring anything but that case only effects Kosovo, it does not have any bearing on other or future cases. It can be brought up in a future court case as a guide to be discussed but that's it.
Apart from the ports which were legally owned by Russia the rest of Crimea is owned by Ukraine and any changes to that have to be agreed by Ukraine. (I hate the word owned but legally it fits here)

Where is the international law denying the right of self determination that states that referenda on independence can only be held with the agreement of the current government?

There have been numerous instances where partition has occurred forming two recognised separate states, normally following violent civil upheaval. Much better in my opinion if partition can occur via political means and following the will of the people.

 

[martyn20]

Where is the international law denying the right of self determination that states that referenda on independence can only be held with the agreement of the current government?

There have been numerous instances where partition has occurred forming two recognised separate states, normally following violent civil upheaval. Much better in my opinion if partition can occur via political means and following the will of the people.

I do not know where something like that would be written down, surely a country has control over it's own land and belongings. It's that common sense thing again.
So do you think Scotland could have had an independence vote whenever it liked and just split from the UK after a yes vote no matter what the government of the UK feels about it.

 

[Stoo82]

Where is the international law denying the right of self determination that states that referenda on independence can only be held with the agreement of the current government?

There have been numerous instances where partition has occurred forming two recognised separate states, normally following violent civil upheaval. Much better in my opinion if partition can occur via political means and following the will of the people.

Much like Czechoslovakia.

 

[Creaky]

I do not know where something like that would be written down, surely a country has control over it's own land and belongings. It's that common sense thing again.
So do you think Scotland could have had an independence vote whenever it liked and just split from the UK after a yes vote no matter what the government of the UK feels about it.

Worth a read

http://nationalinterest.org/article/kosovo-precedent-prevails-2833

 

[Stoo82]

I do not know where something like that would be written down, surely a country has control over it's own land and belongings. It's that common sense thing again.
So do you think Scotland could have had an independence vote whenever it liked and just split from the UK after a yes vote no matter what the government of the UK feels about it.

If Scotland had successful yes vote on its own and the UK parliament did not recognize it - we would have to just live with it. Its not like we can roll the tanks in and storm Holyrood and hoist the Union Flag up can we.

 

[smudge]

Politics aside, I would love to see this Grumpy character take a bullet, and all his pals.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28384930

 

[martyn20]

If Scotland had successful yes vote on its own and the UK parliament did not recognize it - we would have to just live with it. Its not like we can roll the tanks in and storm Holyrood and hoist the Union Flag up can we.

We would just keep control of the oil and cut off funding totally from Westminster, remove all UK infrastructure totally, army bases extra, without a smooth transition of power agreed by both sides Scotland would collapse as an independent economy.

 

[Stoo82]

We would just keep control of the oil and cut off funding totally from Westminster, remove all UK infrastructure totally, army bases extra, without a smooth transition of power agreed by both sides Scotland would collapse as an independent economy.

You think the world would be OK with that? Do you not think we would have sanctions against us? We are a democracy, not an Empire. If Scotland wants it, they will get it whether the UK likes it or not. I'm talking of a hypothetical democratic Scottish vote (not sanctioned by the UK parliament) in which they is a 'clear' 50.1% YES. It would be ugly for sure, but we couldn't stop them. Which is why we are bribing the Scottish people with more autonomy within the union in real life.

 

[Creaky]

We would just keep control of the oil and cut off funding totally from Westminster, remove all UK infrastructure totally, army bases extra, without a smooth transition of power agreed by both sides Scotland would collapse as an independent economy.

A better analogy to the situation in Crimea would be if Scotland held a referendum without the approval of Westminster but with the support of France - Scotland becoming a protectorate of the French or indeed full integration as part of France.

Not something that the Scottish people would be likely to vote for but something the Crimean population overwhelmingly did with regards to Russia.

 

[martyn20]

A better analogy to the situation in Crimea would be if Scotland held a referendum without the approval of Westminster but with the support of France - Scotland becoming a protectorate of the French or indeed full integration as part of France.

Not something that the Scottish people would be likely to vote for but something the Crimean population overwhelmingly did with regards to Russia.

And of course 25000 odd armed French troops on the streets of Scotland making sure they voted the right way?

 

[Creaky]

And of course 25000 odd armed French troops on the streets of Scotland making sure they voted the right way?

That implies that Russian troops forced the Crimean population to vote the way they did in March of this year. Whilst most Western nations refuse to accept the legitimacy of the vote none have claimed it wasn't a 'fair' referendum - something I'm sure would have been highlighted had it been rigged.

Have you read that article I linked to earlier, written by Ted Carpenter 5 years ago?

http://nationalinterest.org/article/kosovo-precedent-prevails-2833

 

[martyn20]

That implies that Russian troops forced the Crimean population to vote the way they did in March of this year. Whilst most Western nations refuse to accept the legitimacy of the vote none have claimed it wasn't a 'fair' referendum - something I'm sure would have been highlighted had it been rigged.

Have you read that article I linked to earlier, written by Ted Carpenter 5 years ago?

http://nationalinterest.org/article/kosovo-precedent-prevails-2833

Yes and I see the point but as I said before Yugoslavia was a difficult case to draw precedents from. The ethnic cleansing that Serbia carried out across the former Yugoslavia had a large baring on many of the decision taken by Western Countries and agencies.
Were any of the ethnic Russians in Ukraine locked up in concentration camps, or being herded around Ukraine like cattle?

 

[Creaky]

Yes and I see the point but as I said before Yugoslavia was a difficult case to draw precedents from. The ethnic cleansing that Serbia carried out across the former Yugoslavia had a large baring on many of the decision taken by Western Countries and agencies.
Were any of the ethnic Russians in Ukraine locked up in concentration camps, or being herded around Ukraine like cattle?

In my opinion the way the Kosovans were being treated was justification for military intervention but that is a different argument to supporting and effectively imposing partition and the creation of a new nation.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

That implies that Russian troops forced the Crimean population to vote the way they did in March of this year.

Why would they need to? The population is predominantly Russian*


*ever since Stalin's regime forcibly removed the majority Tartar population, and settled the land with ethnic Russians.

See -anyone can choose an arbitrary point in history to go back to to back their argument.

 

[drew]

I see your point , but most Ukrainians that I knew in Kiev , Dnepropetrovsk , Odessa and Donestk were happy enough as things were . Once the coup took place in Kiev because of the contract change about being closer to the EU with the old president , no one in Ukraine that I knew and people interviewed after knew what was even in the contract with closer ties with Europe ? the contract change was years ago anyway so why did they decide to change president (when they could of done it democratically) only when outside influence persuaded them to ?? I still have contact with these people in Ukraine and by the way they all want peace just like the rest of us .

I don't claim to be an expert but didn't the previous president unilaterally decide he wasn't going to sign the agreement with the EU which resulted in the protests and then the he was voted out by 75% of Ukrainian MPs. You talk about outside influence but don't include Putin influencing Yanukovych not to sign the EU agreement.

 

[Hyperion]

Well, just had the news that one of my housemates was aboard the flight, 21 years old.

Just noticed this. Which one of the victims was your house mate? Awful news. Silly disputes aside, sorry to hear that.

 

[atfc village]

Yes and I see the point but as I said before Yugoslavia was a difficult case to draw precedents from. The ethnic cleansing that Serbia carried out across the former Yugoslavia had a large baring on many of the decision taken by Western Countries and agencies.
Were any of the ethnic Russians in Ukraine locked up in concentration camps, or being herded around Ukraine like cattle?

The Croats were no angels either.

 

[Leighgull]

A better analogy to the situation in Crimea would be if Scotland held a referendum without the approval of Westminster but with the support of France - Scotland becoming a protectorate of the French or indeed full integration as part of France.

Not something that the Scottish people would be likely to vote for but something the Crimean population overwhelmingly did with regards to Russia.

The Porrige and the French are old friends. Judging by the amount of naff saltyre bumper stickers with "ecosse" stamped across them this vote is not so unlikely.

Alternatively this might be a reference by the Haggis munchers to the numerous acts of treachery between the "auld alliance" against the English designed to stick two fingers up to us.

Like we give a shit.

 

[Husty]

Just noticed this. Which one of the victims was your house mate? Awful news. Silly disputes aside, sorry to hear that.

The leeds university student Richard Mayne, was in his flat in halls and then lived with last year as well, he was a great guy, truely one of the good ones.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

The leeds university student Richard Mayne, was in his flat in halls and then lived with last year as well, he was a great guy, truely one of the good ones.

Also just seen this. I'm so sorry for your friend's loss.