Malaysian airline crash

[martyn20]

Don't care if it is a small area or not, when you walking onto a plane destined for anywhere in the world the last thing you should be worried about is being shot down by a missile....

there is no right conclusion as to if, why or who other than it's wrong.

There is no doubt who is responsible for this incident, it's the rebels, how much minute to minute control Russia has over them is still to be confirmed.
I am just asking when getting on a plane to fly the same route with BA, or United or Delta for instance you would not be flying over this warzone, you would have been avoiding it for several months. Why did certain Airlines feel it was ok to fly this path?

 

[Insel affe]

There is no doubt who is responsible for this incident, it's the rebels, how much minute to minute control Russia has over them is still to be confirmed.
I am just asking when getting on a plane to fly the same route with BA, or United or Delta for instance you would not be flying over this warzone, you would have been avoiding it for several months. Why did certain Airlines feel it was ok to fly this path?

Because it was above the designated no fly height and military intelligence have said no threat, they were not the only airline to fly this route. At the end of the day its all too easy to blame the airline, why would you think someone would blow a plane out of the sky. having said that it has happened before and will happen again.

 

[martyn20]

Because it was above the designated no fly height and military intelligence have said no threat, they were not the only airline to fly this route. At the end of the day its all too easy to blame the airline, why would you think someone would blow a plane out of the sky. having said that it has happened before and will happen again.

Where can I read about the military intelligence assessment that Eastern Ukraine was safe to fly over, seems strange with that evidence the US carriers chose to still avoid it, and BA.

 

[The Spanish]

Where can I read about the military intelligence assessment that Eastern Ukraine was safe to fly over, seems strange with that evidence the US carriers chose to still avoid it, and BA.

perhaps it wasnt their decision on a commercial basis, rather their insurers that tipped the balance based on their analysis, or governmental influences were bought to bear, making these policies minor political statements or sanctions-lite, like some of the arab carriers have done re flights over Syria. 'chose to' implies that they are enforcing a duty of care that MH may have taken a more cavalier approach to. I think you are vastly simplifying this issue, using hindsight and without much in the way of information to hand as to the decision making processes on various airlines policies, rather just a 'why oh why' lament.

 

[martyn20]

perhaps it wasnt their decision on a commercial basis, rather their insurers that tipped the balance based on their analysis. 'chose to' implies that they are enforcing a duty of care that MH may have taken a more cavalier approach to. I think you are vastly simplifying this issue, using hindsight and without much in the way of information to hand as to the decision making processes on various airlines policies, rather just a 'why oh why' lament.

All airlines must have had the same information, the way the system works is by sharing that information. So setting aside what happened yesterday, why on Thursday did BA and the American carriers avoid the area and why did Malaysian Airlines and others think it was safe?
Ask the question 24 hours before the incident yesterday.

 

[symyjym]

Because it was above the designated no fly height and military intelligence have said no threat, they were not the only airline to fly this route. At the end of the day its all too easy to blame the airline, why would you think someone would blow a plane out of the sky. having said that it has happened before and will happen again.

Yep, the U.S. Navy shot down an Iranian civilian plane over the Persian Gulf in 1988, and what is even more shocking is that Iran haven’t even had an apology to this day.

Route map is for general reference.

 

[dingodan]

Yep, the U.S. Navy shot down an Iranian civilian plane over the Persian Gulf in 1988, and what is even more shocking is that Iran haven’t even had an apology to this day.

Route map is for general reference.

To be fair, the response was quite humble when it happened.

Reagan: "It was an understandable accident."

 

[dingodan]

This is a good article about MH17 by Ray McGovern who is a former CIA Analyst.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/18/facts-needed-on-malaysian-plane-shoot-down/

He talks about something similar that happened 30 years ago when a Russian jet mistakenly shot down an airliner.

U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder...

...On Sept. 6, 1983, the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council...

...Snyder had a job to do: producing the video that his superiors wanted. “The perception we wanted to convey was that the Soviet Union had cold-bloodedly carried out a barbaric act,” Snyder wrote.

[Quotes are from Alvin A. Snyder, then-director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, in his 1995 book, Warriors of Disinformation.]

Don't think the "good guys" wouldn't lie.

 

[Triggaaar]

Don't think the "good guys" wouldn't lie.

I don't think that, of course they would, have, and do. But some lie more than others. Speak to people who grew up in Czechoslovakia, Hungary etc, their history lessons were quite interesting.

 

[dingodan]

This is also context which has been missing from the conversation.

On Thursday, Russian President Vladimir Putin deflected questions about who may have fired the missile as he called for an international investigation. But he made a telling point when he noted that the “tragedy would not have happened if military actions had not been renewed in southeast Ukraine.”

Those likely to agree with that statement include German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande who, during a lengthy four-way conference call with Poroshenko on June 30, tried desperately to get him to prolong the ceasefire. Only the U.S. voiced support for Poroshenko’s decision to spurn that initiative and order Ukrainian forces into a major offensive in the east.

It was in the context of Ukrainian forces using their airpower to strike rebel positions that led to the rebels’ efforts to neutralize that advantage by deploying anti-aircraft missiles that have achieved some success in downing Ukrainian military planes.

 

[Hillian1]

This is also context which has been missing from the conversation.

The telling fact here is Putin trying to excuse the conflict in Ukraine.

 

[martyn20]

This is also context which has been missing from the conversation.

Putin knows who fired the weapon, as we all do, they told the world themselves through the social media posts and recorded phone calls, now the same people are stopping access to the site, Putin is in total control of this situation and we all know that.

 

[Hillian1]

Putin knows who fired the weapon, as we all do, they told the world themselves through the social media posts and recorded phone calls, now the same people are stopping access to the site, Putin is in total control of this situation and we all know that.

This.

 

[Rugrat]

Putin is in total control of this situation and we all know that.

I'm not sure I do

There's an argument to say he's got his back to the wall and clutching at straws

I come from the side that says give him a way out vs pushing him into a corner, but what do I know?

 

[martyn20]

I'm not sure I do

There's an argument to say he's got his back to the wall and clutching at straws

I come from the side that says give him a way out vs pushing him into a corner, but what do I know?

I would say he has put himself in the corner as opposed anyone pushing him into it. He is the only one who can get himself out of so it's up to him.

 

[dingodan]

Putin knows who fired the weapon, as we all do, they told the world themselves through the social media posts and recorded phone calls, now the same people are stopping access to the site, Putin is in total control of this situation and we all know that.

Did you miss my post about the information war. You just told me the narrative we are being given, as far as I know no investigation has been carried out. There are accusations flying about, but that is to be expected.

We know less than you suggest.

 

[martyn20]

Did you miss my post about the information war. You just told me the narrative we are being given, as far as I know no investigation has been carried out. There are accusations flying about, but that is to be expected.

We know less than you suggest.

Do you refute the social media and phone call evidence?

 

[dingodan]

The telling fact here is Putin trying to excuse the conflict in Ukraine.

What do you mean?

He was calling for a ceasefire on June 30th. Ukraine said no.

 

[martyn20]

What do you mean?

He was calling for a ceasefire on June 30th. Ukraine said no.

And the rebels agreed to the ceasefire?

 

[dingodan]

Do you refute the social media and phone call evidence?

I don't refute it, but it doesn't constitute an investigation, and like I said, there is naturally an information war going on.

As Ray McGovern points out in the article I posted,

It will likely take some time to determine who downed the Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 over eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people onboard. Initial speculation is that someone with a missile battery mistook the plane as a military aircraft, but the precise motive may be even harder to discern.

Given the fog of war and the eagerness among the various participants to wage “information warfare,” there is also the possibility that evidence – especially electronic evidence – might be tampered with to achieve some propaganda victory.

I'm just saying be careful of certainty at this stage.