Main Coronavirus / Covid-19 Discussion Thread

[The Wizard]

Our lodger has just come back from her cleaning job from a manufacturing company that’s been open during lock down.

The office she works in has told furlough staff they are expected back next week.

Some of the staff asked to be furloughed again and the company refused and they said they needed everyone back to ramp everything back up.

Some of the staff said they didn’t feel safe, the company said if they didn’t turn up they would go down as AWOL and will go down the disciplinary route.

Jesus that seems harsh. Someone I know works for construction supplier and he thinks they’ll be back in the next 2 weeks after emails from management. I’m amazed companies would be that slap dash about it given everyone has different situations at home, poor form from whoever that is if you ask me.

 

[Bob'n'weave]

sounds perfect, lighten restrictions let the public ease themselves back in. those that want to self isolate can continue, those who need or want to get out more can. the talk in the news is about office space regulations, hours, how to manage transport. they wouldn't be talking about that if we're another 3 weeks from any change.

Sorry, but nothing very much has changed in respect to meeting the 'five test' litmus paper guide, so I can't see how things can get back to normal ATM. Digital tech to track contacts, alerts (and travel passes?) are still at R&D level, testing is all over the place and not being aimed at the general populace yet, to protect the NHS, an effective 'we've eradicated this' vaccine is months/years away and as far as I know, there is no evidence to suggest that C-19 is likely to just disappear any time soon. So who is going to just accept that it's ok to go back to work and send the kids to school without any progress being made in lessening the risk of infection or dying from it. Going from getting arrested for sitting on a park bench to 'it's ok now, honest', is not going to wash with most - until more progress is made. I think we should be monitoring closely what happens in places where the lockdown is being tinkered with in countries that we are behind of in the time-line. If these countries experience a second wave we would be foolish to go ahead relaxing restrictions. This is a learning process, and mistakes will be costly.

 

[Titanic]

[tweet]1257213785728856070[/tweet]

How will privacy be protected?

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/6f0f52cf-9fda-4785-bf63-af156d18b6c7

Subject: The Government’s response to COVID-19: human rights implications
Witness(es): Dr Orla Lynskey, Associated Professor of Law, London School of Economics; Dr Michael Veale, Lecturer in Digital Rights and Regulation, University College London
Witness(es): Matthew Gould CMG MBE, CEO at NHSX, Department of Health and Social Care; Elizabeth Denham CBE, UK Information Commissioner, Information Commissioner's Office; Simon McDougall, Executive Director, Technology and Innovation, Information Commissioner's Office

 

[BN41Albion]

The main problem the government will now have when they finally ease the lockdown, I agree on 7/5 they will extend it for another 3 weeks to make us in lockdown for longer than any other country in the world, is persuading people to leave their homes at all. Such is the fear and panic out there now and Whitty ramping it up at every opportunity to say " this is just the start and will go and for years " and the fear of the second wave. I see it all the time on my social media, people demanding we stay in lockdown for 6 more months. They have opened a can of worms now, lawsuits about human rights being violated and lawsuits from people that might catch it if they return to work. They UK is a nation paralyzed with fear and how you change that, who knows ?

Erm, tell that to the Spanish and Italians, for example, who are only just being allowed out to go for a walk/exercise outside, at staggered times, too. No half-lockdown for them as we've had here, until now.

We've had a relaxed lockdown compared to a great deal of countries, I'm not sure how you come to the we're any more paralysed by fear than other countries?

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Jesus that seems harsh. Someone I know works for construction supplier and he thinks they’ll be back in the next 2 weeks after emails from management. I’m amazed companies would be that slap dash about it given everyone has different situations at home, poor form from whoever that is if you ask me.

From the flip side they have employed 3 additional day cleaners to wipe everything all day

They are a small business that needs to get things going again

Maybe they are piss takers already?

Extra harsh.... they will be hundreds that would take the job...

 

[beorhthelm]

Sorry, but nothing very much has changed in respect to meeting the 'five test' litmus paper guide, so I can't see how things can get back to normal ATM...

stop you there, i agree. didnt say anything about being back to normal. the reponse was relating to another 3 weeks of the current restrictions. i believe we'll move on to less restrictions.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

Erm, tell that to the Spanish and Italians, for example, who are only just being allowed out to go for a walk/exercise outside, at staggered times, too. No half-lockdown for them as we've had here, until now.

We've had a relaxed lockdown compared to a great deal of countries, I'm not sure how you come to the we're any more paralysed by fear than other countries?

Just an observation but I still maintain the lockdown is very draconion

 

[Bakero]

Just an observation but I still maintain the lockdown is very draconion

Not from where I'm sitting.

 

[Notters]

sounds perfect, lighten restrictions let the public ease themselves back in. those that want to self isolate can continue, those who need or want to get out more can. the talk in the news is about office space regulations, hours, how to manage transport. they wouldnt be talking about that if we're another 3 weeks from any change.

Whilst this is true, surely most people who work in offices CAN and should work from home. It's not offices that are the issue?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Wow, NY as well. Far more people well and truly given up - or not caring - in the USA compared to elsewhere it seems

As someone already stated, clever picture using compression.

 

[Albion Dan]

So who is going to just accept that it's ok to go back to work and send the kids to school without any progress being made in lessening the risk of infection or dying from it. Going from getting arrested for sitting on a park bench to 'it's ok now, honest', is not going to wash with most - until more progress is made. .

To be honest I think there are two sizeable camps and one definitely wants to just get on with it again. It's already manifesting in London in a big way looking at how busy things are becoming again and pretty slack approach to distancing.

The five tests:

NHS can cope - pass
Sustained fall in daily death rate - well past the peak - Pass
R rate below 1 - Scientists saying its currently 0.7 - Pass
PPE and Testing sufficient - The narrative has clearly stepped up to suggest testing is met but PPE could be the challenge - Fail although PPE availability improving.
Avoid 2nd wave - Would imagine a phased relaxation would allow greater understanding. Only way to find out is to begin the relaxation.

Looking at above would suggest we are very close to a change in direction.

Here is City AMs view.

https://www.cityam.com/five-tests-to-end-uk-coronavirus-lockdown-which-ones-have-we-met/

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Wow, NY as well. Far more people well and truly given up - or not caring - in the USA compared to elsewhere it seems

To be honest I think there are two sizeable camps and one definitely wants to just get on with it again. It's already manifesting in London in a big way looking at how busy things are becoming again and pretty slack approach to distancing.

The five tests:

NHS can cope - pass
Sustained fall in daily death rate - well past the peak - Pass
R rate below 1 - Scientists saying its currently 0.7 - Pass
PPE and Testing sufficient - The narrative has clearly stepped up to suggest testing is met but PPE could be the challenge - Fail although PPE availability improving.
Avoid 2nd wave - Would imagine a phased relaxation would allow greater understanding. Only way to find out is to begin the relaxation.

Looking at above would suggest we are very close to a change in direction.

Here is City AMs view.

https://www.cityam.com/five-tests-to-end-uk-coronavirus-lockdown-which-ones-have-we-met/

Nicola Sturgeon stated that the R of 0.7 was not low enough to ease the lockdown yet.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Sorry, but nothing very much has changed in respect to meeting the 'five test' litmus paper guide, so I can't see how things can get back to normal ATM. Digital tech to track contacts, alerts (and travel passes?) are still at R&D level, testing is all over the place and not being aimed at the general populace yet, to protect the NHS, an effective 'we've eradicated this' vaccine is months/years away and as far as I know, there is no evidence to suggest that C-19 is likely to just disappear any time soon. So who is going to just accept that it's ok to go back to work and send the kids to school without any progress being made in lessening the risk of infection or dying from it. Going from getting arrested for sitting on a park bench to 'it's ok now, honest', is not going to wash with most - until more progress is made. I think we should be monitoring closely what happens in places where the lockdown is being tinkered with in countries that we are behind of in the time-line. If these countries experience a second wave we would be foolish to go ahead relaxing restrictions. This is a learning process, and mistakes will be costly.

There are a lot of people ramping up the end of lockdown on here. I agree with you, there is no way things will get back in full sway for a long time.

 

[ken tiler]

Just an observation but I still maintain the lockdown is very draconion

I agree, and probably counter productive in ecomomicand health terms. I think we (initially) and the Swedish had the right approach. As Rob Slane on his extremely well written and researched "Lockdown Stockholm Syndrome" article on his TheBlogmire site (https://www.theblogmire.com/lockdown-stockholm-syndrome/) comments:-

"Sweden and the UK — by daily deaths per million population (note, the UK figures are somewhat skewed on 29th April, as the Government decided to count deaths in care homes on that day ((extraordinary that these were missed off before)). What is actually clear is that Sweden has in fact fared better than the UK, with total recorded deaths at 256.6 per million, compared to 419.1 per million for the UK, as at 3rd May:"

 

[Albion Dan]

Nicola Sturgeon stated that the R of 0.7 was not low enough to ease the lockdown yet.

But Boris's measure said needed to be below 1 so he can claim a pass.

 

[dazzer6666]

Sorry, but nothing very much has changed in respect to meeting the 'five test' litmus paper guide, so I can't see how things can get back to normal ATM. Digital tech to track contacts, alerts (and travel passes?) are still at R&D level, testing is all over the place and not being aimed at the general populace yet, to protect the NHS, an effective 'we've eradicated this' vaccine is months/years away and as far as I know, there is no evidence to suggest that C-19 is likely to just disappear any time soon. So who is going to just accept that it's ok to go back to work and send the kids to school without any progress being made in lessening the risk of infection or dying from it. Going from getting arrested for sitting on a park bench to 'it's ok now, honest', is not going to wash with most - until more progress is made. I think we should be monitoring closely what happens in places where the lockdown is being tinkered with in countries that we are behind of in the time-line. If these countries experience a second wave we would be foolish to go ahead relaxing restrictions. This is a learning process, and mistakes will be costly.

However lockdown is relaxed it will be little by little, with ongoing assessment of infection rates etc before the next stage of release. 'Normal' is months and months, if not years, away and really needs a vaccine to have been administered very widely. Talk of things like 'schools returning' doesn't mean wholesale return for all pupils for example - will be something like year group by year group, or half classes on alternate days or similar. I don't envisage going back to my office for several weeks yet - there is simply no need, so why take the risk (to me or others) ? I can see open spaces, parks, beaches etc opening up though, with people expected to maintain distancing.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

But Boris's measure said needed to be below 1 so he can claim a pass.

I think it has been said many times that the R needs to be lower than 1 in order that the disease doesn't grow exponentially. However not any number below 1 would be acceptable, for instance 0.8 or 0.9 as it would be inviting trouble, and therefore there has to be some cut off point deemed safe or relatively safe.

 

[Notters]

Nicola Sturgeon stated that the R of 0.7 was not low enough to ease the lockdown yet.

And what is she suggesting? It isn't going to get lower by itself. Either we have the status quote, where it will stay roughly the same (perhaps going up slightly as people start to ignore the rules, but also going down slightly as there are fewer people to infect) - or you would need even tighter lockdown measures, which would be very hard to enforce, to reduce it.

Or she doesn't understand R0?

I think it has been said many times that the R needs to be lower than 1 in order that the disease doesn't grow exponentially. However not any number below 1 would be acceptable, for instance 0.8 or 0.9 as it would be inviting trouble, and therefore there has to be some cut off point deemed safe or relatively safe.

Also worth noting that it will be very different in different places. It's likely been 5 or more in London as a result of the tube, etc. - though this will be reducing due to huge numbers already having been infected. In isolated rural communities it's likely always been very low.

 

[Notters]

double post

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

And what is she suggesting? It isn't going to get lower by itself. Either we have the status quote, where it will stay roughly the same (perhaps going up slightly as people start to ignore the rules, but also going down slightly as there are fewer people to infect) - or you would need even tighter lockdown measures, which would be very hard to enforce, to reduce it.

Or she doesn't understand R0?

She used her comment to justify continuance of the lockdown at present.