Main Coronavirus / Covid-19 Discussion Thread

[dsr-burnley]

53%, 5.3% or 0.53% - I don't care. Wearing a mask reduces the risk of you passing on an infection to others to some degree.

As it happens at the end of last week I was walking around, infected with COVID, and didn't know. As ever when I went into shops I put my mask on. There's a chance by doing this I may have saved someone else from being infected. I may have saved someone highly vulnerable becoming infected, either directly from me, or from someone in between us.

If I didn't bother wearing a mask because "they don't work" or because "not many other people are" or "everyone else only wears them as chin warmers" or any other spurious reason I may cling to in order to try and justify my lack of empathy for others, then there would have been a higher chance of me passing it on.

Wearing a mask at the present time may have long term benefits, it may not. For me and my immediate family, it has significant short term disadvantages, so we don't.

I don't think there is much doubt that wearing a mask 365 days a year would reduce the spread of infections, before, during and after coronavirus. The question is, does the benefit outweigh the disadvantages. Historically, we have always believed it doesn't. Pre-vaccine, we believed it does. Now we have the vaccine, the majority have decided that the disadvantages of masks outwiegh the benefits; a strong minority like yourself, haven't. It's a matter of degree.

Which is why the 54% matters. Since masks were made optional in mid-July, we have had approx. 7 fortnights (which I understand approximate to the R-number cycle of infection) and R has remained roughly at 1. If it had been 53% less, ie. the infections had been reduced by 53% each cycle, then the number of cases would be 200 each day instead of 40,000. And if people actually believed that to be true, then they would have worn masks. This is the problem - if they try and persuade us to wear masks because of figures which are obviously wrong or else do not mean what they appear to mean, it isn't going to work.

 

[loz]

Mask wearing might make a difference if a clean one is used ever time, but from what I see when people enter shops dragging something that has not been cleaned in weeks if at all ,looks like no health benefit if anything the opposite.

Was out with my 30 year old lad the other day and asked him to put a mask on when we went into a shop…what he took out of his pocket I would not of wiped my car down with, made him throw it away a got a new one for him.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

German Mps vote to ban unvaccinated/those without clear test from public transport.

 

[loz]

These are England only.

Daily admissions:
Today: 713
Last Thursday: 808

COVID Hospital totals:
Today: 6,336
Last Thursday: 6,861

COVID patients on ventilation:
Today: 779
Last Thursday: 842

Deaths in England
Today: 144
Last Thursday: 151

 

[CHAPPERS]

Our government does deserve a lot of credit for how it has handled the pandemic.

'Freedom Day' was a brave move, and had a lot of criticism at the time, but it shows it was absolutely the correct decision. Overly cautious countries in Europe are now paying the price - restrictions, lockdowns and the inevitable economic hit.

We are still in a considerably better position, and even I'm surprised at how well we are doing. Still not out of the woods yet as when temperature really drops we are likely to see a sudden rise in cases.

…and hospitalizations of unvaccinated people.

 

[dazzer6666]

Sweden going for vaccination passes now……..(DT extract)

Sweden introduces Covid pass as cases rise

WITH Covid-19 cases rising in much of Europe, Sweden will on Dec 1 introduce a vaccination pass for all indoor public events of more than 100 people, its government said yesterday.

As its infection rates were relatively low, Sweden on Nov 1 removed the requirement for fully vaccinated people with symptoms to be tested for Covid, but the government said criticism of the decision had prompted it to do an about-turn. Lena Hallengren, the health minister, said she expected to see a rise in cases during the winter as Sweden was “not isolated from the rest of the world”.

The government has yet to decide whether a pass will be required for those over 16, or 18, at concerts, theatres and sporting events. Restaurants and bars will be exempt. Venues that are not required to demand a pass will have to restrict crowd numbers and demand that social distancing is practised.

Early in the pandemic, Sweden eschewed lockdowns and instead recommended the wearing of facemasks in crowded places, though bars and restaurants were require to close earlier.

It lifted all restrictions in late September.

 

[dazzer6666]

Most hospitalisations will be vaccinated people, which isn't surprising as most people in vulnerable groups are vaccinated and unfortunately vaccines do not make them bullet proof.

Absolutely not the case according to several medics on various programmes I’ve listened to this week.

 

[Weststander]

Absolutely not the case according to several medics on various programmes I’ve listened to this week.

View attachment 142248

That’s astonishing, bearing in mind:

46m in the UK have been double vaccinated.
5m has chosen not to be vaccinated at all.

 

[Bozza]

Austria the first European nation to have a full lockdown this winter, with a 10-day lockdown due to start Monday, and the option of a 10-day extension.

More controversially, there seems to be a suggestion of mandatory vaccination as of February 1st next year.

 

[Weststander]

Austria the first European nation to have a full lockdown this winter, with a 10-day lockdown due to start Monday, and the option of a 10-day extension.

More controversially, there seems to be a suggestion of mandatory vaccination as of February 1st next year.

I’ve followed their situation, partly due to holiday interests. Jeremy Vine’s prog stat that they have 2m refusing a vaccine, per capita that’s the equivalent of 15m in the UK (our number is 5m).

The numbers in central and eastern Europe have been awful for quite a while now, but get virtually no media coverage here.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

BNO Newsroom
@BNODesk
·
2h
BREAKING: Everyone in Austria will be legally required to get vaccinated against COVID-19, chancellor says

This is very wrong

 

[Bakero]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/austria-plans-compulsory-covid-vaccination-for-all

 

[Klaas]

Our persistently high and steady case rates over the last few months is a key contributing factor as to why we're doing better than much of Europe right now...

Luckily more people didn't choose to wear masks over the last few months, otherwise we could be on a dangerous upward trajectory right now too....

We're still stable. Waves = bad, steady bumpy line = good.

I wish I had your confidence to just make stuff up and present it as fact. It must be nice.

 

[Swansman]

Austria the first European nation to have a full lockdown this winter, with a 10-day lockdown due to start Monday, and the option of a 10-day extension.

More controversially, there seems to be a suggestion of mandatory vaccination as of February 1st next year.

Frightening. A state taking the liberty of forcing medical procedures on adults. In a country that less than three generations ago were ruled by the most vicious thinkable man. If society would have been as organised back then as it is now - nowhere to hide - I have no doubts some people would have got a vaccine while others would have had a "vaccine". There is nothing that says that couldnt happen again. The permanent extermination of evil happened in Star Wars, not in reality. In some countries such a law would be seen as an absolute nightmare for those daring to oppose some authoritarian leader.

Yet here in Europe I could absolutely see how a majority would accept or even welcome such a law. In peacetime it is very easy to forget the numerous ways tyrants abuse laws.

Most human rights activists and scholars sees violation of the bodily integrity as a serious offense. It will be interesting to see how they respond to this idea. In the post-2001 world most things dubious from the integirty perspective are justified with "safety" but I feel this is another step and would cause chaos at least in some countries.

 

[Seagull27]

BNO Newsroom
@BNODesk
·
2h
BREAKING: Everyone in Austria will be legally required to get vaccinated against COVID-19, chancellor says

This is very wrong

Frightening. A state taking the liberty of forcing medical procedures on adults. In a country that less than three generations ago were ruled by the most vicious thinkable man. If society would have been as organised back then as it is now - nowhere to hide - I have no doubts some people would have got a vaccine while others would have had a "vaccine". There is nothing that says that couldnt happen again. The permanent extermination of evil happened in Star Wars, not in reality. In some countries such a law would be seen as an absolute nightmare for those daring to oppose some authoritarian leader.

Yet here in Europe I could absolutely see how a majority would accept or even welcome such a law. In peacetime it is very easy to forget the numerous ways tyrants abuse laws.

Most human rights activists and scholars sees violation of the bodily integrity as a serious offense. It will be interesting to see how they respond to this idea. In the post-2001 world most things dubious from the integirty perspective are justified with "safety" but I feel this is another step and would cause chaos at least in some countries.

While I am also very uncomfortable with this, I'm not sure what the alternative is for them. Low uptake of vaccines is resulting in hospitalisations due to covid rocketing. If they don't get a higher vaccine uptake, their options are:

- keep enforcing lockdowns every time cases go up, for an unknown length of time until the virus is (hopefully) less dangerous. Huge hits to the economy, mental health etc

- let their healthcare system become overwhelmed with covid patients, meaning they can't treat other patients and excess deaths therefore skyrocketing

- don't treat unvaccinated people who have covid?

Which option would you go for?

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

While I am also very uncomfortable with this, I'm not sure what the alternative is for them. Low uptake of vaccines is resulting in hospitalisations due to covid rocketing. If they don't get a higher vaccine uptake, their options are:

- keep enforcing lockdowns every time cases go up, for an unknown length of time until the virus is (hopefully) less dangerous. Huge hits to the economy, mental health etc

- let their healthcare system become overwhelmed with covid patients, meaning they can't treat other patients and excess deaths therefore skyrocketing

- don't treat unvaccinated people who have covid?

Which option would you go for?

I dont know is the honest answer.

But how do you force people to have an injection x 2/3 etc etc - tie them down?

 

[Seagull27]

I dont know is the honest answer.

But how do you force people to have an injection x 2/3 etc etc - tie them down?

It'll be interesting to see how it's enforced certainly. By effectively excluding access to anything without proof of vaccine? Fines perhaps? Could get very messy legally.

 

[Swansman]

While I am also very uncomfortable with this, I'm not sure what the alternative is for them. Low uptake of vaccines is resulting in hospitalisations due to covid rocketing. If they don't get a higher vaccine uptake, their options are:

- keep enforcing lockdowns every time cases go up, for an unknown length of time until the virus is (hopefully) less dangerous. Huge hits to the economy, mental health etc

- let their healthcare system become overwhelmed with covid patients, meaning they can't treat other patients and excess deaths therefore skyrocketing

- don't treat unvaccinated people who have covid?

Which option would you go for?

Option one is the least bad one in my opinion.

The main problems with lockdowns in most of the world so far is that it has been all or nothing, because the governments way too long to go into soft lockdowns so they have to do it the hard way.

 

[Seagull27]

Option one is the least bad one in my opinion.

The main problems with lockdowns in most of the world so far is that it has been all or nothing, because the governments way too long to go into soft lockdowns so they have to do it the hard way.

I agree with you on governments waiting too long to take appropriate actions, completely. We've seen plenty of evidence of that over the last year or two.

Option one is pretty bad still though. Economic hits could be significant over a long period of time, especially if other countries have got out of that cycle. It's also quite unfair on those who have been vaccinated to suffer restrictions, when they wouldn't be needed if more others got vaccines as well. And surely the lockdowns would lose effectiveness after a while, as more and more people would ignore them.

I really don't think there is a good solution - and herein lies the problem with libertarianism. I'm all for the autonomy and freedom to say and do what you like, but that falls down when your actions negatively impact large numbers of other people. See also: climate change. Humans are inherently selfish and we want what's best for ourselves and those closest to us. Sometimes society as a whole needs a level of authority to ensure this doesn't impact the wider population. I guess the Austrian government think this is one of those cases, and while I don't like it, I doubt they do either, but don't really see a better choice.

 

[sparkie]

The skyrocketing cases in Europe isn't solely down to low vaccination rates - as observed in countries with high vaccination rates also seeing a surge in cases at the moment.

The goal has always been to 'flatten the curve' which we have done through persistently high cases. I have no idea whether this was deliberate - if it was the intention, the government could never have publicised this - but it has certainly worked.

Much of Europe has had persistently high cases... until now, where there is an outbreak in cases which is out of control - a wave.

The ONLY option for them is to lockdown - a full lockdown - if only for a few days, such as a firebreak. We'll see them all do this in the coming days.

We really need to know what vaccines have been used. Ukraine has used a lot of the Chinese vaccine ( anecdotal ) and Hungary ( supposedly ) a lot of Russian vaccine.

Were these good choices ?