Main Coronavirus / Covid-19 Discussion Thread

[dsr-burnley]

So in summary the main argument for not mandating wearing masks on public transport and similar for a few weeks and reducing the long term chance of people who have waited to get a vaccine having long term health problems is it is going to mildly inconvenience people?

What a great country we have become.

This isn't "what we have become". The argument now for having masks on public transport is no stronger now than it has been for the last fifty years. By all means argue that we have always been "great" in that way. But this is not new.

 

[beorhthelm]

So in summary the main argument for not mandating wearing masks on public transport and similar for a few weeks and reducing the long term chance of people who have waited to get a vaccine having long term health problems is it is going to mildly inconvenience people?

What a great country we have become.

you'd be mandating N95/N99 grade masks, surgical grade 3ply masks or generic face covering of no particular standard?

the main argument is face masks just arent really necessary any more. probably never were much impact on suppressing spread anyway.

 

[e77]

This isn't "what we have become". The argument now for having masks on public transport is no stronger now than it has been for the last fifty years. By all means argue that we have always been "great" in that way. But this is not new.

Don’t know if you have been following the news but we are at the end stages of a global pandemic of which the vaccination programme is a few weeks from completion.

But don’t worry, you won’t be asked to mildly inconvenience yourself for a few weeks more so don’t worry.

 

[e77]

you'd be mandating N95/N99 grade masks, surgical grade 3ply masks or generic face covering of no particular standard?

the main argument is face masks just arent really necessary any more. probably never were much impact on suppressing spread anyway.

Only I never said that, did I?

Masks slowed the spread of the virus. End of conversation.

 

[nicko31]

I’m pretty sure now we have such a high level of vaccinated protection the governments strategy is shifting slightly, I think they will now let the virus spread naturally during the summer, with such high numbers protected it’s unlikely we’ll see the same numbers of serious illnesses and deaths, and we’ll also gain a lot more natural immunity, thus in turn leaving us in a much better place come the winter.
A risky strategy perhaps, but if it works, life really will return to some kind of normality.

I'm afraid it is risk and IMHO the risk reward is ditching restrictions on 19th does not add up

We have an excellent vaccination programme that has cost billions and will be completed in just a couple of months. We don't need to reach immunity through letting millions of people getting infected by going too early, with this there are significant risks

It is high summer and we should be trying to consolidate our position for winter; things like contact tracing, ventilation in buildings and ensure if there are another significant outbreak there is still a proper system of financial support for isolation.

Instead we have a situation they want to ditch social distancing, make mask wearing optional and open up large indoor events like nightclubs without testing.

The government are a one trick pony with Covid, they have vaccines and think they will be a silver bullet even when not fully implemented

There is some solace that restrictions were kept at least kept in place during Euros particularly with England success. Packed pubs would have sent infections even higher than they are now

 

[dsr-burnley]

Don’t know if you have been following the news but we are at the end stages of a global pandemic of which the vaccination programme is a few weeks from completion.

But don’t worry, you won’t be asked to mildly inconvenience yourself for a few weeks more so don’t worry.

Being a patronising twonk doesn't make your argument any more compelling.

I do not see the relevance of being at the end stages of a global pandemic. The point of wearing masks over the next few weeks is to mitigate whatever needs mitigating over the next few weeks. It is not to act as a sort of punishment for what has gone before.

The average daily number of deaths caused by respiratory disease, as the primary cause of death, was 176 over the first 7 weeks of May-June. (Of these, average 11 caused by coronavirus.) In the whole of 2019, the average daily number of deaths from respiratory diseases was 197, and in January-February 2019 it was 276. You may have perfectly sound and acceptable reasons for wanting masks to be mandatory for the next few weeks, but I don't see the sense in then releasing them because those reasons would be equally sound and acceptable for wearing masks at all times and in all places forever. The UK as a whole has never thought those reasons compelling before, and IMO does not need to do so now either.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I'm afraid it is risk and IMHO the risk reward is ditching restrictions on 19th does not add up

We have an excellent vaccination programme that has cost billions and will be completed in just a couple of months. We don't need to reach immunity through letting millions of people getting infected by going too early, with this there are significant risks

It is high summer and we should be trying to consolidate our position for winter; things like contact tracing, ventilation in buildings and ensure if there are another significant outbreak there is still a proper system of financial support for isolation.

Instead we have a situation they want to ditch social distancing, make mask wearing optional and open up large indoor events like nightclubs without testing.

The government are a one trick pony with Covid, they have vaccines and think they will be a silver bullet even when not fully implemented

There is some solace that restrictions were kept at least kept in place during Euros particularly with England success. Packed pubs would have sent infections even higher than they are now

So you would like to push the exit wave into winter time?

Something Whitty has repeatedly said is stupid and he backs unlocking now.

Large number of People are not following restrictions during the Euros, I’d say the majority are not whilst watching football.

Social distancing isn’t a thing anymore.

 

[dazzer6666]

I'm afraid it is risk and IMHO the risk reward is ditching restrictions on 19th does not add up

We have an excellent vaccination programme that has cost billions and will be completed in just a couple of months. We don't need to reach immunity through letting millions of people getting infected by going too early, with this there are significant risks

It is high summer and we should be trying to consolidate our position for winter; things like contact tracing, ventilation in buildings and ensure if there are another significant outbreak there is still a proper system of financial support for isolation.

Instead we have a situation they want to ditch social distancing, make mask wearing optional and open up large indoor events like nightclubs without testing.

The government are a one trick pony with Covid, they have vaccines and think they will be a silver bullet even when not fully implemented

There is some solace that restrictions were kept at least kept in place during Euros particularly with England success. Packed pubs would have sent infections even higher than they are now

Who are these ‘millions’ that are going to get infected ?

 

[Billy the Fish]

Looking at social media at the moment it seems like it's just the serial moaners/complainers who don't want to lift restrictions. They're now clinging onto long covid as a reason.

 

[e77]

Being a patronising twonk doesn't make your argument any more compelling.

I do not see the relevance of being at the end stages of a global pandemic. The point of wearing masks over the next few weeks is to mitigate whatever needs mitigating over the next few weeks. It is not to act as a sort of punishment for what has gone before.

The average daily number of deaths caused by respiratory disease, as the primary cause of death, was 176 over the first 7 weeks of May-June. (Of these, average 11 caused by coronavirus.) In the whole of 2019, the average daily number of deaths from respiratory diseases was 197, and in January-February 2019 it was 276. You may have perfectly sound and acceptable reasons for wanting masks to be mandatory for the next few weeks, but I don't see the sense in then releasing them because those reasons would be equally sound and acceptable for wearing masks at all times and in all places forever. The UK as a whole has never thought those reasons compelling before, and IMO does not need to do so now either.

Patronising suggests I think I am superior to you. You might think that, but I couldn't possible comment.

Answer me this:

What is the downside of mandating people having to wear face coverings on public transport until mid September* when the vaccination programme would have got through everyone who wanted it and had two weeks for the last people to develop maximum immunity post second jab?

*date may vary

 

[dsr-burnley]

Patronising suggests I think I am superior to you. You might think that, but I couldn't possible comment.

Answer me this:

What is the downside of mandating people having to wear face coverings on public transport until mid September* when the vaccination programme would have got through everyone who wanted it and had two weeks for the last people to develop maximum immunity post second jab?

*date may vary

One downside is that it gives the government powers that it does not need. Another is that it extends people's fear in that some people will continue to believe that coronavirus is a deadly dangerous wide-ranging threat, when it currently isn't. Another is that if the mask compulsion is to be released this year, your proposal would release it when respiratory infections are rising as winter approaches rather than now, when there is a lot of summer still to come. Another is that if masks are mandated for public transport into the next school year then it will encourage that fool Williamson to continue to disrupt and destroy children's education on the flimsiest of pretexts. Another is the continued mental health issues of people being told again and again that their freedom is coming and being repeatedly told that it is not coming after all.

I can and do see the reason for stopping wearing masks now, and I can see why some people want to keep masks for ever. I'll reverse your question. What is the benefit of extending the mask mandate so that under-35's can be fully vaccinated? There are on average 176 people per day dying of respiratory diseases, and your proposal will protect approximately 0.1 of them. Is the cost of compulsory mask wearing worth the very marginal short-term increase in safety for under 35's?

 

[W.C.]

Is the cost of compulsory mask wearing worth the very marginal short-term increase in safety for under 35's?

I've said this a number of times on this thread I think, but living in Japan and then seeing the reaction of the British to wearing masks during this pandemic is at times gob smacking. The cost?? Some people need to get a grip.

 

[darkwolf666]

One downside is that it gives the government powers that it does not need. Another is that it extends people's fear in that some people will continue to believe that coronavirus is a deadly dangerous wide-ranging threat, when it currently isn't. Another is that if the mask compulsion is to be released this year, your proposal would release it when respiratory infections are rising as winter approaches rather than now, when there is a lot of summer still to come. Another is that if masks are mandated for public transport into the next school year then it will encourage that fool Williamson to continue to disrupt and destroy children's education on the flimsiest of pretexts. Another is the continued mental health issues of people being told again and again that their freedom is coming and being repeatedly told that it is not coming after all.

I can and do see the reason for stopping wearing masks now, and I can see why some people want to keep masks for ever. I'll reverse your question. What is the benefit of extending the mask mandate so that under-35's can be fully vaccinated? There are on average 176 people per day dying of respiratory diseases, and your proposal will protect approximately 0.1 of them. Is the cost of compulsory mask wearing worth the very marginal short-term increase in safety for under 35's?

So really your argument has limited scientific basis, but is formed by your dislike of the government and some of its ministers then!

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Looking at social media at the moment it seems like it's just the serial moaners/complainers who don't want to lift restrictions. They're now clinging onto long covid as a reason.

Independent sage are morphing into the lockdown forever/climate change group they tried to hide

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I don't mind the relaxation of restrictions for now.

My big problem is with the "irreversible" mantra.

Really? If things tank they will just say "oh well, irreversible, tough".

All well and good now we are in summer. Let's see what winter holds before being "irreversible".

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Also remember it looks like booster vaccines will only be offered to the over 50s.

I'm hoping for a Pfizer / Moderna booster next time after having 2 AZ so far.

 

[beorhthelm]

Patronising suggests I think I am superior to you. You might think that, but I couldn't possible comment.

Answer me this:

What is the downside of mandating people having to wear face coverings on public transport until mid September* when the vaccination programme would have got through everyone who wanted it and had two weeks for the last people to develop maximum immunity post second jab?

*date may vary

again, should this mandate be N95, surgical grade or non-specified? the reason i ask is that mandating next to negligible protection of the latter at this point seems, well, negligible. if you want to mandate something to protect people, make it the ones that function as protection rather than symbolism. and yes, that should have been the case the past year too.

 

[vegster]

I'm getting a little nervous now, this " irreversible " easing really seems a risky gamble given the huge increase in new cases we have seen over the last few weeks. I used to think that Javid was a pretty reasonable minister for a Tory but he seems to have been re-programmed since his hiatus between the treasury and re-emerging as health Minister. Has he been told to " Get Lockdown Done" at all costs by Johnson as the price of a seat back in cabinet ? I genuinely think the language he is using shows he does not really understand the nuances of the Covid-19 epidemic, only the numbers.

Politics trumps Covid science in Javid’s push to ‘live with the virus

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/04/politics-trumps-covid-science-in-javids-push-to-live-with-the-virus

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/04/pm-confirm-19-july-end-covid-restrictions-scientists-warnings-england
PM to confirm 19 July end to Covid rules despite scientists’ warnings
Boris Johnson to press ahead with final stage of unlocking in England amid huge rise in infections

 

[beorhthelm]

I'm getting a little nervous now, this " irreversible " easing really seems a risky gamble given the huge increase in new cases we have seen over the last few weeks.

wouldnt get too hung up on it. we know how firm this government stand on anything, it will be irreversible as long as its politically safe to be so. if hospitalisations are running high, NHS at risk etc, it will be reversed.

 

[Billy the Fish]

I'm getting a little nervous now, this " irreversible " easing really seems a risky gamble given the huge increase in new cases we have seen over the last few weeks. I used to think that Javid was a pretty reasonable minister for a Tory but he seems to have been re-programmed since his hiatus between the treasury and re-emerging as health Minister. Has he been told to " Get Lockdown Done" at all costs by Johnson as the price of a seat back in cabinet ? I genuinely think the language he is using shows he does not really understand the nuances of the Covid-19 epidemic, only the numbers.

Politics trumps Covid science in Javid’s push to ‘live with the virus

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/04/politics-trumps-covid-science-in-javids-push-to-live-with-the-virus

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/04/pm-confirm-19-july-end-covid-restrictions-scientists-warnings-england
PM to confirm 19 July end to Covid rules despite scientists’ warnings
Boris Johnson to press ahead with final stage of unlocking in England amid huge rise in infections

The Guardian were all over this yesterday with the scare stories you've linked to. It was all based on quotes from two members of the so called Independent SAGE, who are both psychologists. I would argue that it's they who don't understand the nuance and are focused on numbers of infections. Hyperbole such as "varient factories" is incredibly unhelpful.