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Main Coronavirus / Covid-19 Discussion Thread



kevo

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2008
9,801
For the love of God, what fresh hell is this? They are cancelling appointments for the second dose of the Pfizer vaccine. There is absolutely no evidence of its eficacy after 12 weeks. Many more will die as a result. What a dereliction of trust this is - imagine the grief it's causing to those already vaccinated, knowing they will still be unprotected for another three months. Evil incompetent b*****ds.
 




dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,625
For the love of God, what fresh hell is this? They are cancelling appointments for the second dose of the Pfizer vaccine. There is absolutely no evidence of its eficacy after 12 weeks. Many more will die as a result. What a dereliction of trust this is - imagine the grief it's causing to those already vaccinated, knowing they will still be unprotected for another three months. Evil incompetent b*****ds.

The indication of vaccination success with just one jab was 91%. That's a lot better than being unprotected.
 


kevo

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2008
9,801
The indication of vaccination success with just one jab was 91%. That's a lot better than being unprotected.

52%:

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4826

And according to the manufacturers, there is no evidence it works at all beyond three weeks (so between weeks 3 and 12, the most vulnerable will be unprotected):

pfizer.jpg

They HAVE to complete the second doses within three weeks.
 


dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,625
People getting way ahead of themselves.on the vaccine. Heard Welsh health minister Vaughan Gethjing put it more realistically. To vaccinate the entire adult population by Easter is nigh on impossible and he didn't think we could really ease restrictions until everyone has been vaccinated, probably towards the end of 2021 with a bit of luck and a fair wind.
That would be absurd. In the past 10 months (up to 18th December), 1,410 people under the age of 50 have died of coronavirus, including those who were already terminally ill. Once the over-50s are substantially vaccinated, and also will almost certainly be unable or at least very unlikely to pass it on, then there is no need for another 8 months or so lockdown to save so relatively few lives.

It would make more sense, in fact, to ban cars. More people die on the roads each year than the number of under-50s have died of coronavirus.
 


dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,625
52%:

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4826

And according to the manufacturers, there is no evidence it works at all beyond three weeks (so between weeks 3 and 12, the most vulnerable will be unprotected):

View attachment 131930

They HAVE to complete the second doses within three weeks.
That's 52% average over the three weeks between dose 1 and dose 2. The vaccine starts to work gradually. When you walk out of the clinic after the first jab you are no more protected than you were when you walked in, and the protection gradually kicks in as the time goes by. (Same with the second dose, actually. You don't walk into the clinic with 52% protection and walk out with 95% protection.) The suggestion is that when the first three weeks are up, the body's protection has ramped up to 91%.

You are right that there is no evidence that on day 22 the protection hasn't thumped back to zero. They didn't test for that. It has not been tested whether the vaccine loses all its effectiveness 21 days and 1 minute after the jab. But on the other hand, there is equally no evidence that protection on day 22 does thump back to zero, and the medical history of vaccines as a group suggests that vaccines don't work that way. Any improvements, and especially any deteriorations, in protection, are gradual.

The question is whether it's better to have all the population substantially protected, or half the population totally protected and the other half totally vulnerable. It needs more qualified brains than mine to be certain about it, but on the face of it it appears that a 12-week period and get more people with a jab quicker could be a sensible way to go.
 




kevo

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2008
9,801
That's 52% average over the three weeks between dose 1 and dose 2. The vaccine starts to work gradually. When you walk out of the clinic after the first jab you are no more protected than you were when you walked in, and the protection gradually kicks in as the time goes by. (Same with the second dose, actually. You don't walk into the clinic with 52% protection and walk out with 95% protection.) The suggestion is that when the first three weeks are up, the body's protection has ramped up to 91%.

You are right that there is no evidence that on day 22 the protection hasn't thumped back to zero. They didn't test for that. It has not been tested whether the vaccine loses all its effectiveness 21 days and 1 minute after the jab. But on the other hand, there is equally no evidence that protection on day 22 does thump back to zero, and the medical history of vaccines as a group suggests that vaccines don't work that way. Any improvements, and especially any deteriorations, in protection, are gradual.

The question is whether it's better to have all the population substantially protected, or half the population totally protected and the other half totally vulnerable. It needs more qualified brains than mine to be certain about it, but on the face of it it appears that a 12-week period and get more people with a jab quicker could be a sensible way to go.

The fact that these people were vaccinated first means that they are the ones most in danger. By all means change the policy going forward, but for the 500,000 very vulnerable patients who have already had the first jab it's a huge abandonment of trust and a huge risk to their lives.
 


mwrpoole

Well-known member
Sep 10, 2010
1,519
Sevenoaks
That's 52% average over the three weeks between dose 1 and dose 2. The vaccine starts to work gradually. When you walk out of the clinic after the first jab you are no more protected than you were when you walked in, and the protection gradually kicks in as the time goes by. (Same with the second dose, actually. You don't walk into the clinic with 52% protection and walk out with 95% protection.) The suggestion is that when the first three weeks are up, the body's protection has ramped up to 91%.

You are right that there is no evidence that on day 22 the protection hasn't thumped back to zero. They didn't test for that. It has not been tested whether the vaccine loses all its effectiveness 21 days and 1 minute after the jab. But on the other hand, there is equally no evidence that protection on day 22 does thump back to zero, and the medical history of vaccines as a group suggests that vaccines don't work that way. Any improvements, and especially any deteriorations, in protection, are gradual.

The question is whether it's better to have all the population substantially protected, or half the population totally protected and the other half totally vulnerable. It needs more qualified brains than mine to be certain about it, but on the face of it it appears that a 12-week period and get more people with a jab quicker could be a sensible way to go.

Isn’t it also true that the vaccine prevents you from the most severe aspects of COVID so even if you did still catch it, you would only have mild symptoms? Although mild symptoms for some might still be an issue.
 


dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,625
The fact that these people were vaccinated first means that they are the ones most in danger. By all means change the policy going forward, but for the 500,000 very vulnerable patients who have already had the first jab it's a huge abandonment of trust and a huge risk to their lives.
It's also a "huge risk" for the other 500,000 who could be given a single does and won't be. If you thnik of two random old people, is it better than one should get two jabs and one none, or would they be better with one jab each? I don't know. If the experts believe the latter, I can believe them.

This isn't the choice between a perfect solution and an imperfect solution. If it was, it would be easy. It's a choice between two imperfect solutions, so the fact that a single jab is an imperfect solution does not automatically rule it out.
 




crodonilson

He/Him
Jan 17, 2005
14,062
Lyme Regis
That would be absurd. In the past 10 months (up to 18th December), 1,410 people under the age of 50 have died of coronavirus, including those who were already terminally ill. Once the over-50s are substantially vaccinated, and also will almost certainly be unable or at least very unlikely to pass it on, then there is no need for another 8 months or so lockdown to save so relatively few lives.

It would make more sense, in fact, to ban cars. More people die on the roads each year than the number of under-50s have died of coronavirus.

25m people identified in the government's priority groups. Only currently 500,000 vaccines available next week, even once production is ramped up it will take a while to get up to the 2m desired vaccinations a week and even at that level it will take 12 weeks to give everyone their first jab and another 12 weeks for full immunity the vaccine can give so at the very earliest we're talking July. Hopefully we can ease some restrictions in Spring but the rule of 6, and ban on major crowds at sporting and entertainment events and mandatory social distancing will be here for a while to come.
 


dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,625
25m people identified in the government's priority groups. Only currently 500,000 vaccines available next week, even once production is ramped up it will take a while to get up to the 2m desired vaccinations a week and even at that level it will take 12 weeks to give everyone their first jab and another 12 weeks for full immunity the vaccine can give so at the very earliest we're talking July. Hopefully we can ease some restrictions in Spring but the rule of 6, and ban on major crowds at sporting and entertainment events and mandatory social distancing will be here for a while to come.
That's pretty much my point. In August last year, there were 210 deaths, 21 of them people under 60. If the over-60's have been vaccinated by then there will be less to spread around so - all else being equal - the number of deaths should be less than 21. Selling that as a reason for the continued abolition of social life, especially pensioners' social life - it'll be a tough sell.
 


dazzer6666

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Mar 27, 2013
55,533
Burgess Hill
25m people identified in the government's priority groups. Only currently 500,000 vaccines available next week, even once production is ramped up it will take a while to get up to the 2m desired vaccinations a week and even at that level it will take 12 weeks to give everyone their first jab and another 12 weeks for full immunity the vaccine can give so at the very earliest we're talking July. Hopefully we can ease some restrictions in Spring but the rule of 6, and ban on major crowds at sporting and entertainment events and mandatory social distancing will be here for a while to come.

There's a difference between starting to ease restrictions and being back to 'normal' - you originally suggested we couldn't 'really ease restrictions until everyone has been vaccinated, probably towards the end of 2021 with a bit of luck and a fair wind'. Even if it takes 12 weeks to give everyone considered higher risk their first jab, that means in around 15 weeks (it's not 12 and then another 12) the risk of anything other than a really tiny, tiny minority getting seriously ill (and the NHS being overwhelmed - which is at the heart of the restrictions) is massively reduced almost to the point of practical elimination from a statistical perspective - and this will happen progressively as of 3 weeks ago. c18m will have been vaccinated by the end of Feb if plans are ramped up as intended - and I think in both the Pfizer and Oxford trials no-one developed symptoms that required hospitalisation. Further, the hospitalisation rates of the over 80s are already noticeably falling

I think we'll see hospitalisation rates and deaths start to noticeably fall by around the end of Feb (after a post-Christmas spike which will be awful), and regions dropping through the tiers thereafter.
 




Kinky Gerbil

Im The Scatman
NSC Patron
Jul 16, 2003
58,792
hassocks
Sage are suggesting a return to March style lockdown isn’t enough - complete with schools shut - May not be enough to lower the R

So what else is there left to shut?
 


darkwolf666

Well-known member
Nov 8, 2015
7,651
Sittingbourne, Kent
There's a difference between starting to ease restrictions and being back to 'normal' - you originally suggested we couldn't 'really ease restrictions until everyone has been vaccinated, probably towards the end of 2021 with a bit of luck and a fair wind'. Even if it takes 12 weeks to give everyone considered higher risk their first jab, that means in around 15 weeks (it's not 12 and then another 12) the risk of anything other than a really tiny, tiny minority getting seriously ill (and the NHS being overwhelmed - which is at the heart of the restrictions) is massively reduced almost to the point of practical elimination from a statistical perspective - and this will happen progressively as of 3 weeks ago. c18m will have been vaccinated by the end of Feb if plans are ramped up as intended - and I think in both the Pfizer and Oxford trials no-one developed symptoms that required hospitalisation. Further, the hospitalisation rates of the over 80s are already noticeably falling

I think we'll see hospitalisation rates and deaths start to noticeably fall by around the end of Feb (after a post-Christmas spike which will be awful), and regions dropping through the tiers thereafter.

I really love the positivity that shines through in this post, but have highlighted the area where it could, and most probably will, fall down.

Boris was quite clear last night he wouldn't (couldn't) give numbers for weekly vaccinations. I think 2 million a week is pie in the sky at the moment and that 12 weeks will be more like 18... As the husband of someone vulnerable I hope I'm wrong - but hey, at least he hadn't said "world beating" vaccination programme, so maybe we have a chance!
 


beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,014
Sage are suggesting a return to March style lockdown isn’t enough - complete with schools shut - May not be enough to lower the R

So what else is there left to shut?

some in Sage wont be happy until we are all locked inside for a month, except the man coming around to put red cross on the door of those infected.
 






dazzer6666

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Mar 27, 2013
55,533
Burgess Hill
I really love the positivity that shines through in this post, but have highlighted the area where it could, and most probably will, fall down.

Boris was quite clear last night he wouldn't (couldn't) give numbers for weekly vaccinations. I think 2 million a week is pie in the sky at the moment and that 12 weeks will be more like 18... As the husband of someone vulnerable I hope I'm wrong - but hey, at least he hadn't said "world beating" vaccination programme, so maybe we have a chance!

Quite possibly - but it won’t be anything like as bleak as Crodo is trying to suggest though IMO. I’m also comforted that it’ll be the NHS, pharmacies etc and the army doing the vaccination logistics, not the government.

Thing to remember is how quickly the vulnerable will start being protected......even if we do head for 18 weeks, that means 10m+ in the MOST vulnerable categories will be protected in say 10/11 weeks (with the biggest impact on hospitalisation - the biggest bang for buck is in the first 10m or so, after that the risk of getting seriously ill in the categories covered starts to rapidly decline).
 




Kinky Gerbil

Im The Scatman
NSC Patron
Jul 16, 2003
58,792
hassocks
Quite possibly - but it won’t be anything like as bleak as Crodo is trying to suggest though IMO. I’m also comforted that it’ll be the NHS, pharmacies etc and the army doing the vaccination logistics, not the government.

Thing to remember is how quickly the vulnerable will start being protected......even if we do head for 18 weeks, that means 10m+ in the MOST vulnerable categories will be protected in say 10/11 weeks (with the biggest impact on hospitalisation - the biggest bang for buck is in the first 10m or so, after that the risk of getting seriously ill in the categories covered starts to rapidly decline).

Already seems they are ****ing it up

Sage also suggesting end of 2021
 








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