Main Coronavirus / Covid-19 Discussion Thread

[East Staffs Gull]

Destroying the economy (which will massively effect our health service and have a severe impact on death rates in the future) because of a bad flu season where 99%+ of the people that died from this would’ve died within about a year anyway. It’s insane.

If the media actually reported on this correctly, the brainwashed wouldn’t have the views they do now.

Seems that the braindead are more of an issue than the brainwashed.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

Woah! Hold your horses there. I was't specifically talking about Sweden, although granted the post was made in response one that mentioned Sweden. I was responding to the graph posted by BeHereNow (and defense of said graph) purporting to show a direct link between lockdown and higher death rates.

They are not saving thousands of lives, they are postponing thousands of deaths.

They are buying themselves to prepare. Many countries need this. You have mentioned the state of the healthcare system in Sweden but it is still better resourced than many in the EU. Countries in Eastern Europe and Balkan countries couldn't take the (calculated) risk that Sweden is taking now. Their healthcare systems would have simply collapsed.

People all over the world are criticising our strategy, mocking how we "allow people to die" (we have 23% more deaths than a normal, how about you?) , "sacrifice people to save the economy" - as if totally crashing your economy leads to no deaths.

Studies show that suicides increase significantly in times of and immediatly after a economical crisis. Drug abuse and poor general health is also tied to poverty (and isolation), and cost lives.

I agree. There are many different forms of lockdown. Not all countries have been put in 7 weeks of house arrest like people in Spain. There is a balance that needs to be struck between protecting against Covid-19 and protecting vulnerable people (whether than be people with mental health issues or victims of abuse).

And if we are "sacrificing" lives by having no lockdown while you are among the worst off in the whole world while having your beloved lockdown, what would that indicate about the competence of your (elected) government, your populations intelligence in regards of adhering to social distancing and the shape of your society?

Which would be "my society"? The country of my birth (UK), the country where I am resident (Spain) or my wifes country where I have been stuck since lockdown (Greece)?

But I dont really think you are stupid

That is very generous of you

you are just suffering from cognitive dissonance any time you hear about Sweden: you have one part of your brain saying 'its not too bad in Sweden despite their freedom..." and another part of your brain processing the endless fearmongering from your toxic, destructive tabloids.

It gets very complicated to digest that what you are doing might cost more lives and more of your resources than what we're doing.

Or perhaps not so generous

Is Kathimerini a toxic and destructive tabloid? To give you an idea of the lockdown here in Greece. You can still go out, get your shopping done, take exercise, get a takeaway souvlaki, pick up a frappe and drink it in the sun. You can't meet in big groups and people are taking precautions seriously. But to say I love lockdown would be pushing it. It's a balance, and I believe that here they seem to be striking such a balance.

Its very demanding and hurting to take a look at your society and see - shit, we're ruled by fear and our politics is a type of personality cult where political decisions are made not out of long-term scientific decisions, but too avoid getting hanged by the media and the angry (but mostly scared) mob getting influenced by it.

Its way easier to look in another direction and say "LOOK, POPULATION DENSITY!!!" or "LOOK, MORE DEATHS THAN NORWAY!!!".

I'm not saying we're perfect neither when it comes to this crisis or otherwise - i.e. we have a growing collection of social issues and as for the virus, our elderly care is so poor and underfinanced by the both the government and the yanks buying it that there is no way of protecting the oldest. We have a lot to learn in that area.

Again you have rather based this on me living in the UK and agreeing with what the government there is doing.

But as for rational, sensible, long-term stability political measures - short term "immoral" or not - we have an astonishing record and a lot of governments and societys could learn a lot from it. I mean, take a look at your recent political history and try to convince me its not a complete ****ing shitshow determined by a fear of everything and the direction of the wind. It needs to end and thats where your focus should be rather than ridiculing us for not following you on your path that we consider a lot more risky and dangerous than the one we're currently taking.

I agree, I am fan of the 'big society' model. Not sure that means you have it right now but that doesn't detract from that fact histrocially Sweden has go a lot right in the recent past

When this shit returns and you have little immunity in your population compared to us, you'll likely (unfortunately) understand the concept of making decisions based on looking further than tomorrows newspaper.

This pandemic and our understanding of covid-19 and the virus itself is constantly evolving. As I mentioned many countries are as lucky as Sweden and needed to buy themselves some time. But again, my comment wasn't about Sweden per se, but about the bold claim that not having a lockdown somehow equates to a lower deathrate.

Anyways, I thought your post was a little agressive. Hopefully I have not responded in similar way. Be kind and see you on the other side my friend!

 

[Guinness Boy]

Well said old chap.

Good luck trying to get through to the brainwashed.

Destroying the economy (which will massively effect our health service and have a severe impact on death rates in the future) because of a bad flu season where 99%+ of the people that died from this would’ve died within about a year anyway. It’s insane.

If the media actually reported on this correctly, the brainwashed wouldn’t have the views they do now.

Blmey.

I assume you haven't had a bereavement due to Covid yet because a number of people round here have and that middle statement is somewhere between upsetting and disgusting. Never mind the NHS people and bus drivers etc who have given their lives

Nevertheless, you have totally ignored the fact that if we just carried on as normal here the rest of the world is locked down anyway. International travel, trade etc wouldn't be anywhere near normal and we'd be heading for recession but with a potentially much higher death rate.

There certainly are lessons to be learned, as I said. The 25% increase in deaths in Sweden versus our 50 odd %. But those with stricter lockdowns also did better, as I said.

Still, I can see the terms "cognative disonance" and "brainwashed" appearing so it must be time for you two to get out the Bacofoil, skin up and plug in.

 

[Springal]

Well said old chap.

Good luck trying to get through to the brainwashed.

Destroying the economy (which will massively effect our health service and have a severe impact on death rates in the future) because of a bad flu season where 99%+ of the people that died from this would’ve died within about a year anyway. It’s insane.

If the media actually reported on this correctly, the brainwashed wouldn’t have the views they do now.

Why do you think all the world leaders have conspired to kill global economy ? Is it the lizard men?

 

[Machiavelli]

The Elon Musk who’s one of the smartest men in the world, will be taking man to Mars and obviously knows how to read statistics.

Clearly the lockdown works...
View attachment 123042

We have our new conspiracy theorist on here.
You didn't do too well at school, did you, and you haven't bothered since.

 

[Machiavelli]

That’s just a statement of fact.

My point was that, to date, we are doing worse than countries with strict lockdowns but also worse than Sweden. Being in the middle, ostensibly, hasn’t worked as well

We now test over 100k a day. We’ve sourced PPE. We may be able to get more oxygen and CPAP machines lined up. Nightingale hospitals are closing. So it seems the “delay” has worked - except Sweden flattened its curve in a more liberal manner with, for now, better results.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The other thing about Sweden is that they are one of the best educated societies around, which is in stark contrast to those on this thread seeking that we replicate Sweden's approach.

 

[LamieRobertson]

https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=a...Ewiu1q3Y45fpAhXGQUEAHeokAfwQieUEegQICxAK&ep=6

One of my favourite podcasts is The Daily from The New York Times...this episode from a couple of days ago features a twelve year old who has lost her grandad to covid19...it’s a just a ‘simple’ chat with her ..but gives you an idea of how death of a loved one hits one young person

 

[BeHereNow]

We have our new conspiracy theorist on here.
You didn't do too well at school, did you, and you haven't bothered since.

I’ve got 5 GCSE’s mate.

 

[BeHereNow]

Why do you think all the world leaders have conspired to kill global economy ? Is it the lizard men?

Well, considering people like Bill Gates stand to make a lot of money out of a vaccine, I don’t think it’s too much of a jump to say that a few of them may have been bought.

Those health officials you see on the news have been paid millions by him.

 

[Springal]

Well, considering people like Bill Gates stand to make a lot of money out of a vaccine, I don’t think it’s too much of a jump to say that a few of them may have been bought.

Those health officials you see on the news have been paid millions by him.

Personally I can’t see why Bill Gates with a net worth of over $100Bn is motivated by more money.

 

[The Wizard]

Don’t even reply people honestly, you can’t reason with that type of stupidity.

Hospital Deaths update

England 327
Scotland 12
Wales 14
NI 5

Usual caveats apply weekend numbers, particularly Scotland seem to record very low numbers at the weekend but again clear signs hospital fatalities are dropping markedly. Full all setting death update later.

 

[RossyG]

The other thing about Sweden is that they are one of the best educated societies around, which is in stark contrast to those on this thread seeking that we replicate Sweden's approach.

Professor Johan Gieseke is certainly a well-educated Swede. He was their state epidemiologist and still advises them on public health and he thinks the Swedish model could work here.

 

[RossyG]

Think certain governments will massively regret going hard on scaremongering.

Yes, explain the issues - but we are now faced with people either not wanting to go back to work or can’t.

Our problem was that the government listened to Professor Neil Ferguson who has a long and ignoble history of reacting to every outbreak with “end of the world” pronouncements and estimated death figures that prove to be insanely overblown.

 

[sparkie]

They are not saving thousands of lives, they are postponing thousands of deaths.

People all over the world are criticising our strategy, mocking how we "allow people to die" (we have 23% more deaths than a normal, how about you?) , "sacrifice people to save the economy" - as if totally crashing your economy leads to no deaths.

Studies show that suicides increase significantly in times of and immediatly after a economical crisis. Drug abuse and poor general health is also tied to poverty (and isolation), and cost lives.

And if we are "sacrificing" lives by having no lockdown while you are among the worst off in the whole world while having your beloved lockdown, what would that indicate about the competence of your (elected) government, your populations intelligence in regards of adhering to social distancing and the shape of your society?

But I dont really think you are stupid - you are just suffering from cognitive dissonance any time you hear about Sweden: you have one part of your brain saying 'its not too bad in Sweden despite their freedom..." and another part of your brain processing the endless fearmongering from your toxic, destructive tabloids.

It gets very complicated to digest that what you are doing might cost more lives and more of your resources than what we're doing.

Its very demanding and hurting to take a look at your society and see - shit, we're ruled by fear and our politics is a type of personality cult where political decisions are made not out of long-term scientific decisions, but too avoid getting hanged by the media and the angry (but mostly scared) mob getting influenced by it.

Its way easier to look in another direction and say "LOOK, POPULATION DENSITY!!!" or "LOOK, MORE DEATHS THAN NORWAY!!!".

I'm not saying we're perfect neither when it comes to this crisis or otherwise - i.e. we have a growing collection of social issues and as for the virus, our elderly care is so poor and underfinanced by the both the government and the yanks buying it that there is no way of protecting the oldest. We have a lot to learn in that area.

But as for rational, sensible, long-term stability political measures - short term "immoral" or not - we have an astonishing record and a lot of governments and societys could learn a lot from it. I mean, take a look at your recent political history and try to convince me its not a complete ****ing shitshow determined by a fear of everything and the direction of the wind. It needs to end and thats where your focus should be rather than ridiculing us for not following you on your path that we consider a lot more risky and dangerous than the one we're currently taking.

When this shit returns and you have little immunity in your population compared to us, you'll likely (unfortunately) understand the concept of making decisions based on looking further than tomorrows newspaper.

Oh, a lot of us know that our Government is incompetent, and that there are a shed load of idiots in our society.

It is just the way it is, I'm long past caring about it.

 

[Albion Dan]

And yet you don’t compare Sweden to all the rest of their Nordic neighbours, wonder why? Look how many people this virus has killed already, you think carrying on as normal wouldn’t have killed probably many times the amount of people and destroyed our health service?

Sweden has 3 cities above 250k population, the U.K. has 29. How about that aye?

Comparing Sweden to countries that have lockdown is pointless. Of course if you’re in lock down there will be less transmission. Hardly rocket science is it.

I never said we should have carried on as normal, and I speak as someone who had a bad case of Covid too. I’m saying we need to start relaxing guidelines and getting the economy going urgently and Sweden is proof that it can be done and keep things contained to an acceptable level. I think everyone living in fear and wanting to lock themselves away because they have allowed the news to terrify them are in for a shock very soon. We’re almost certain to see relaxation coming in next week or two as luckily the government can see the bigger picture.

 

[Machiavelli]

I’ve got 5 GCSE’s mate.

Congratulations. Did that include English Language, such that you know how to use an apostrophe?
You're a greengrocer, and I claim my £5

 

[RossyG]

Congratulations. Did that include English Language, such that you know how to use an apostrophe.
You're a greengrocer, and I claim my £5

Such that you know?

Also, there should be a full stop at the end of the second sentence.

 

[Albion Dan]

Yours is 23% above, ours is around 52%. The cases to deaths ratio for both nations is around 8 and both are holding steady to falling. Sweden is a relative success compared to the UK.

However, New Zealand with a similar geographical isolation and low population, compared to the UK, did much better than Sweden and locked it down good and tight.

There is no right or wrong way when comparing countries because everywhere is different.

The problem with New Zealand is the question of when they open their borders what happens or will they wait for vaccine. When we’re all up and running making money again what state will they be in? Maybe they have the luxury of being a small self sustaining country, I don’t know. I remember some Kiwi leading biologist deriding Boris Johnson’s strategy saying it would lead to a minimum of 300k deaths. Way way off and another example of creating fear and hysteria.

Another thing I can report to everyone is the lockdown in my part of London is eroding by the day anyway. I’ve just been for a walk and hundreds of people about, shops busy with little distancing, parks busy. No one enforcing anything.

 

[BeHereNow]

Congratulations. Did that include English Language, such that you know how to use an apostrophe?
You're a greengrocer, and I claim my £5

Clearly not an Oasis fan as you didn’t get the joke.

But, yes I do have a GCSE for English Language.

Would you also like to know about my time at college for Public Services? My time at college for Music Performance? Or even my 2 years in the Army Cadet Force?

Please let me know what I can do to show that I’m not stupid, because I’m so bothered about what you all think.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I’ve got 5 GCSE’s mate.

These days that's the very defintion of "not well". But then you're also an under 30 with a picture of Farage in a suit as your avatar.

That's the great thing about conspiracy theories. You can be absolutely debunked on point after point and all you need to do is say "aha but what about <insert even more ridicuous theory>" and post links to even more obscure youtube channels that then take the weary sheeple another 10 minutes to debunk, Rinse and repeat.

The funny thing is it's the youtubers making money out of your stupidity.