Luis Suarez

[Wilko]

Are you Gus?

Well seeing as the opening line of my statement was 'I am not defending Suarez at all...' then clearly not.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

Even though the incident happened in the heat of a footie match I cannot condone what Suarez said. However it does pain me that the 'injured' party is Evra who is not exactly the best role model himself, but thats no excuse for him racially abused. There is some suggestion that Evra verbally retaliated but does not seem to have been taken into account. Secondly it concerns me that the case has been determined without witnesses and appears to be based on one players word against anothers. However such cases often hang on how the offended party perceives they have abused.

Suarez has to abide by rules of our society. At least the FA have acted robustly sending out a wider message that racism will not be tolerated. Poyet is getting more flak in the 5 live phone this morning. Poyet should have tempered his own comments in support of Suarez by saying that what might be acceptable in Uruguay is not acceptable here.

To be fair, Gus did that in his TalkSport interview ('I completely adapt. I don't call anyone negro'). He also said that Suarez has to learn and should be given six months to do so.

 

[Wilko]

Oh god. Please tell me this is from his previous comments and he has not gone back on the radio today.

Haha, I can just picture a tiny Mr.Bloom trying to hold Gus back from any cameras and microphones.

 

[Questions]

Evra is a foul breathed,garlic munching, whinging,whining twat.
No need for racism surely.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I find it offensive too and I have never said it is right or acceptable? I just believe we as a nation massively amplify racism into the world's worst offence. It is a horrible act of course but often takes front page headlines whist cases of rape, domestic violence etc are filtered down from the media highlight.

I see where you are coming from. I'm not sure I agree though, as any of these acts can be front page and in the media highlight as long as a celebrity of some sort is involved. Also, the 'whingeing City' has got higher billing than Suarez in today's Guardian.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Haha, I can just picture a tiny Mr.Bloom trying to hold Gus back from any cameras and microphones.

Indeed. He is getting a reputation as a rent-a-gob. There will always be a job for Gus as a London cabbie if his managerial career fails.

 

[Bold Seagull]

To be fair, Gus did that in his TalkSport interview ('I completely adapt. I don't call anyone negro'). He also said that Suarez has to learn and should be given six months to do so.

After 52 internationals, 4 years in Holland, and in the employment of Liverpool for at least 9 months before the Evra incident, you'd have to say, for a pampered professional footballer, who have a lot of free time after training, there is little excuse for him not realising that in the biggest game of Liverpool's season, televised to millions around the world, that the term is offensive.

It's a global game, I really fail to see that over his professional career, and upon leaving South America, no one has told him it's not a great term to use in many parts of the world. I would have thought the first team mate he called that at Ajax would have told him that almost immediately. I really don't buy this 'cultural' differences line of defence.

 

[Wilko]

I see where you are coming from. I'm not sure I agree though, as any of these acts can be front page and in the media highlight as long as a celebrity of some sort is involved. Also, the 'whingeing City' has got higher billing than Suarez in today's Guardian.

By the way, lots of us going out (Marcus, Lee, Brett etc.) for a few bevvies on Friday from about 5 in Brighton if you would like to continue our discussion in person

 

[The Large One]

Don't forget that this is a nation (UK) where certain elements of society look for racism where none exists. (Blackboard, blackbird etc.) Do other cultures do that? Do they hold such considerations so strongly? Another can of worms.

In this country, rightly or wrongly, it is a closed shop when discussing what is and is not acceptable. Luis Suarez has been found guilty of racism (though on the grounds of cultural probability, and not tested to the same extent as a Court of Law would). But because he is here in England, he will be punished for it quite strongly. Go to the next country and do the same thing, he may not. Either they will accept his mitigation, or they won't consider it an issue in the first place.

But you're then back to the original philosophical (and cultural) argument - what is racism? Is racism defined as an insult due to another person's skin colour (or even nationality) or does it cover merely the verbal or literal reference to a person's skin colour? (If we're talking about cultural insults, raising your left hand to an Arab as a form of greeting is one of the worst insults you could offer him - but wouldn't raise a second thought here.)

Therefore I'd say that this story is not directly about Luis Suarez, but more about England, its institutions and its attitudes; Suarez has merely brought them into focus. Suarez is guilty, I would say, of cultural misinterpretation, and needs a slap on the wrist for it. Is he an out-and-out racist? Who knows? 'For my first witness, I call Dr Sigmund Freud...'

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

Indeed. He is getting a reputation as a rent-a-gob. There will always be a job for Gus as a London cabbie if his managerial career fails.

Have you read the Tim Vickery article on the BBC about the Suarez case? Tim's articles are generally worth a read and are well thought out and written and this one is along the similar veins of what Gus said just put a little more eloquently and gives a little more background about South American/Urguay culture. the main difference is Tim got to write his viewpoint and carefully consider each word before publishing whereas Gus was speaking off the cuff and unless you are a very accomplished public speaker it is very easy to say something slightly wrong and people bury you for it.

 

[The Large One]

Have you read the Tim Vickery article on the BBC about the Suarez case? Tim's articles are generally worth a read and are well thought out and written and this one is along the similar veins of what Gus said just put a little more eloquently and gives a little more background about South American/Urguay culture. the main difference is Tim got to write his viewpoint and carefully consider each word before publishing whereas Gus was speaking off the cuff and unless you are a very accomplished public speaker it is very easy to say something slightly wrong and people bury you for it.

BBC Sport - Luis Suarez ban for racist abuse of Patrice Evra leaves Uruguay bemused

 

[Commander]

Just to be clear, I am not actually suggesting that what Suarez did was right, or that it should go unpunished. I'm merely suggesting that there is something wrong when you get banned for 3 games for headbutting someone on a football pitch, but you get banned for 8 games for calling them a nasty word, no matter how offensive it is. I honestly cannot see how any sane invidual can argue that there isn't something wrong in this.

If someone did something to me on a football pitch that really annoyed me, and I was determined to take revenge, surely the fact that I could think "I wont say the nastiest thing I can say to him, because I'll get a massive ban for that, I'll punch him instead, the punishment will be much more lenient" is absolutely ridiculous?

3-4 game ban and a big fine is sufficient punishment. He wont do it again after that, will he?

I cant wait to see what happens to John Terry now. There is no "what I said is acceptable in my country" defence with him. I bet he gets off, or at least gets a much more lenient punishment than Suarez.

Am I the only person outside of Liverpool / Uruguay who likes Luis Suarez? He's a proper old school classic, dirty, cheating, nasty, brilliant South American footballer. There's not enough of them in the game anymore, same as there aren't enough fat players or players with beards.

 

[Wilko]

Don't forget that this is a nation (UK) where certain elements of society look for racism where none exists. (Blackboard, blackbird etc.) Do other cultures do that? Do they hold such considerations so strongly? Another can of worms.

In this country, rightly or wrongly, it is a closed shop when discussing what is and is not acceptable. Luis Suarez has been found guilty of racism (though on the grounds of cultural probability, and not tested to the same extent as a Court of Law would). But because he is here in England, he will be punished for it quite strongly. Go to the next country and do the same thing, he may not. Either they will accept his mitigation, or they won't consider it an issue in the first place.

But you're then back to the original philosophical (and cultural) argument - what is racism? Is racism defined as an insult due to another person's skin colour (or even nationality) or does it cover merely the verbal or literal reference to a person's skin colour? (If we're talking about cultural insults, raising your left hand to an Arab as a form of greeting is one of the worst insults you could offer him - but wouldn't raise a second thought here.)

Therefore I'd say that this story is not directly about Luis Suarez, but more about England, its institutions and its attitudes; Suarez has merely brought them into focus. Suarez is guilty, I would say, of cultural misinterpretation, and needs a slap on the wrist for it. Is he an out-and-out racist? Who knows? 'For my first witness, I call Dr Sigmund Freud...'

This is a very good post. England almost needs to redefine what racism actually is because for want of a better phrase, at the moment it is 'f***ed up'. The examples you give of blackboard, blackbird highlight this, this 'looking for racism' thing you mention is also bizarre. People cannot wait to pin a racist label on someone when they clearly had no racial venom behind a statement or word at all.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

By the way, lots of us going out (Marcus, Lee, Brett etc.) for a few bevvies on Friday from about 5 in Brighton if you would like to continue our discussion in person

This could work. I'm planning to meet a chum mid-afternoon in Brighton on Friday myself; the other Noel.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

After 52 internationals, 4 years in Holland, and in the employment of Liverpool for at least 9 months before the Evra incident, you'd have to say, for a pampered professional footballer, who have a lot of free time after training, there is little excuse for him not realising that in the biggest game of Liverpool's season, televised to millions around the world, that the term is offensive.

It's a global game, I really fail to see that over his professional career, and upon leaving South America, no one has told him it's not a great term to use in many parts of the world. I would have thought the first team mate he called that at Ajax would have told him that almost immediately. I really don't buy this 'cultural' differences line of defence.

Suarez has clearly not taken care and responsibility with how his words land with others, I agree. And you are right, he has had lots of opportunities to learn, which he has not taken. However, that's a very different accusation to saying he has used racist language.

 

[Commander]

BBC Sport - Luis Suarez ban for racist abuse of Patrice Evra leaves Uruguay bemused

Excellent article.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Just to be clear, I am not actually suggesting that what Suarez did was right, or that it should go unpunished. I'm merely suggesting that there is something wrong when you get banned for 3 games for headbutting someone on a football pitch, but you get banned for 8 games for calling them a nasty word, no matter how offensive it is. I honestly cannot see how any sane invidual can argue that there isn't something wrong in this.

If someone did something to me on a football pitch that really annoyed me, and I was determined to take revenge, surely the fact that I could think "I wont say the nastiest thing I can say to him, because I'll get a massive ban for that, I'll punch him instead, the punishment will be much more lenient" is absolutely ridiculous?

3-4 game ban and a big fine is sufficient punishment. He wont do it again after that, will he?

I cant wait to see what happens to John Terry now. There is no "what I said is acceptable in my country" defence with him. I bet he gets off, or at least gets a much more lenient punishment than Suarez.

Am I the only person outside of Liverpool / Uruguay who likes Luis Suarez? He's a proper old school classic, dirty, cheating, nasty, brilliant South American footballer. There's not enough of them in the game anymore, same as there aren't enough fat players or players with beards.

Maybe this is how racism will be stamped out?. A player will now twat an opponent as opposed to using insulting racial language. Vincelot was ahead of his time. Had he said 'Hey honky dont slap me' he'd have got 8 games......but his clever thinking meant that justice was delivered with only a 3 game ban.

 

[Commander]

This is a very good post. England almost needs to redefine what racism actually is because for want of a better phrase, at the moment it is 'f***ed up'. The examples you give of blackboard, blackbird highlight this, this 'looking for racism' thing you mention is also bizarre. People cannot wait to pin a racist label on someone when they clearly had no racial venom behind a statement or word at all.

Yep, definitely. It is bizarre, it's like there is some kind of competition with some people to see who can be offended by the most inoffensive thing. Odd. And sad.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

There are lots of parallels between the currently controversy around using the non-racist word 'negrito' in the UK and the controversies around using the non-racist word 'niggardly' in the US.

Controversies about the word "niggardly" - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If I wishes to be inflammatory here I'd be tempted to plagiarise one of the viewpoints from that article and declare: 'what a shame that Suarez has to censor his own language to meet other people's lack of understanding. The FA should order a dictionary for all of Suarez's opponents that need them!'

Suffice to say, though, if Suarez knew the word 'negrito'' was likely to wind up his opponent who was likely to misinterpret its meaning, and still chose to use it, he deserves to be punished.

 

[Brovion]

Just to be clear, I am not actually suggesting that what Suarez did was right, or that it should go unpunished. I'm merely suggesting that there is something wrong when you get banned for 3 games for headbutting someone on a football pitch, but you get banned for 8 games for calling them a nasty word, no matter how offensive it is. I honestly cannot see how any sane invidual can argue that there isn't something wrong in this.

If someone did something to me on a football pitch that really annoyed me, and I was determined to take revenge, surely the fact that I could think "I wont say the nastiest thing I can say to him, because I'll get a massive ban for that, I'll punch him instead, the punishment will be much more lenient" is absolutely ridiculous?

3-4 game ban and a big fine is sufficient punishment. He wont do it again after that, will he?

....

That pretty much sums up my view as well. Leaving aside the whole "What is racism?" debate (which as we all know extends well beyond football), I cannot believe that even in race-obsessed England people think that using offensive language is a far more serious crime and worthy or a far bigger punishment than punching someone or breaking an opponent's leg with a deliberately reckless two-footed lunge. That's why I can't believe people are saying the FA 'got it right'. Weird priorities IMO.