Lorry crashes into Christmas Market Berlin.

[Insel affe]

It's a fair point. But does it not occur to you that if we funded our schools properly, we should be able to cope with that situation?

Is the correct answer, my daughter goes to a school in Brighton and in her class nearly 50% have English as a second language and this does impact on my daughter to the extent they do not have enough reading books on the higher level for class because as the teacher told us they have x amount to spend and buy more of the lower level books. We are lucky enough to be able to afford some books for her and when she has finished reading them we give them to the school. It should not be this way, but that is a direct result of different languages being spoken in the school which also takes up the teachers time spending more time on those children. I am not moaning because when we looked round the school we were told this and made the conscious decision to send our daughter to that school for that reason to mix and learn. More funding is needed throughout the system housing, health and education, then people will not have the excuse of separation and hate that I grew up with.

 

[alfredmizen]

It's a fair point. But does it not occur to you that if we funded our schools properly, we should be able to cope with that situation?

I'm genuinely sure you're a lovely bloke mate , I mean that , but I'm just bored with people advocating the wonderful benefits of multiculturalism from places like hove , if hove is your hometown and you had seen its ethnic makeup totally and utterly change and all the associated problems that come with that I'm sure you wouldn't be so keen .

 

[mothy]

Out of interest what age group are you referring to?

4 to 8

 

[Hastings gull]

It's a fair point. But does it not occur to you that if we funded our schools properly, we should be able to cope with that situation?

So simple isn't it? you have posted about funding hospitals, infrastructure and now schools - it is so easy to come up with this, as a solution to a problem that many people feel should not be foisted on them in the first place. Surveys regularly show that the single biggest concern for british voters is uncontrolled immigration, and your solution is to just keep spending, which is the reality of what you are advocating.

 

[trueblue]

Maybe we could , but it doesn't make.it right that we should have to.

Where are most of our doctors and nurses, for instance, going to send their kids to school then? You can't just make the blanket assumption that all of these people are a drain on our society, in the same way that I can't claim all of them are contributing. The truth as usual lies somewhere in between the two.

Surely the one indisputable fact is that the world moves on and will continue to do so. It's up to us a nation (of immigrants, historically) to deal with that, adapt and not look to blame others all the time for Britain's failings. Look at how our politicians deal with an issue like Southern Rail v the unions. More interested in point-scoring than sorting out the problem for the good of their constituents. While we're arguing about immigration and you're blaming it for ruining the country, they're having a good laugh that so many people are so easily duped into missing the bigger picture. Rich, white people still run the place - don't worry about that... you just don't get to see any of the benefits from it.

Anyway, happy Christmas.

 

[trueblue]

It's a fair point. But does it not occur to you that if we funded our schools properly, we should be able to cope with that situation?

So simple isn't it? you have posted about funding hospitals, infrastructure and now schools - it is so easy to come up with this, as a solution to a problem that many people feel should not be foisted on them in the first place. Surveys regularly show that the single biggest concern for british voters is uncontrolled immigration, and your solution is to just keep spending, which is the reality of what you are advocating.

No, I'm advocating that we should have the maturity as a country to tax people properly - and, most importantly, make sure the rich pay their taxes - so that we have more money to spend to create a society that works. Not keep cutting back because it's a vote-winner and then be surprised that our hospitals, schools, roads etc are in a shit state.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It's a fair point. But does it not occur to you that if we funded our schools properly, we should be able to cope with that situation?

With ever increasing levels of migration there is no 'proper funding of schools' as it is a
moving target. There is a lot more to resettling non English speakers than you imply. It has enormous implications on schools and teachers.

 

[trueblue]

I'm genuinely sure you're a lovely bloke mate , I mean that , but I'm just bored with people advocating the wonderful benefits of multiculturalism from places like hove , if hove is your hometown and you had seen its ethnic makeup totally and utterly change and all the associated problems that come with that I'm sure you wouldn't be so keen .

Hove is my home town. I still like it.

 

[Hastings gull]

Where are most of our doctors and nurses, for instance, going to send their kids to school then? You can't just make the blanket assumption that all of these people are a drain on our society, in the same way that I can't claim all of them are contributing. The truth as usual lies somewhere in between the two.

Surely the one indisputable fact is that the world moves on and will continue to do so. It's up to us a nation (of immigrants, historically) to deal with that, adapt and not look to blame others all the time for Britain's failings. Look at how our politicians deal with an issue like Southern Rail v the unions. More interested in point-scoring than sorting out the problem for the good of their constituents. While we're arguing about immigration and you're blaming it for ruining the country, they're having a good laugh that so many people are so easily duped into missing the bigger picture. Rich, white people still run the place - don't worry about that... you just don't get to see any of the benefits from it.

Anyway, happy Christmas.

You are starting to becomes that shade pompous - presumably you are not duped, unlike all the other dimbos on here who are.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

No, I'm advocating that we should have the maturity as a country to tax people properly - and, most importantly, make sure the rich pay their taxes - so that we have more money to spend to create a society that works. Not keep cutting back because it's a vote-winner and then be surprised that our hospitals, schools, roads etc are in a shit state.

But you are advocating ever increasing spending because you are not proposing any limits. This means we cannot build our society because we are spending just to keep still.

 

[alfredmizen]

Hove is my home town. I still like it.

Of course you do it hasn't been subjected to mass immigration , I think you may be missing my point , London is my home town , I don't like it anymore.

 

[spring hall convert]

Maybe we could , but it doesn't make.it right that we should have to.

We might need to do both.

Without doubt as well as areas that have benefited from economic migration to this country, there are areas where public service provision has become far more difficult as a result of it. Even if the net result is an economic benefit for the country as a whole there are areas suffering. Some element of control on overall numbers or even the distribution of those that came here would help to ease this situation

A big mistake that David Cameron made was scrapping the 'migrant impact fund' a Brown policy that diverted resources to those areas disproportionately impacted by immigration and as they weren't ever Tory voting areas, it was an easy thing for them to scrap.

The thing I get so frustrated about with this debate is the inability of the major politcal parties to realise a) The right thing to do is somewhere in the middle b) You can't look at immigration with broad national brushstrokes, the effects of it are so locally nuanced that optimum polices for areas separated by only a couple of miles might be wildly different.

So yes, some elements of control (and not just on overall numbers) may well be useful but let's not kid ourselves that there isn't also a government policy/ funding issue here. For too long, for reason of political expediency on both sides this issue has been presented as a binary choice, it isn't.

One thing's for sure - the neo-liberal, free market, free movement, low tax argument does not stack up. It's why we're in this mess and people smelt that bullshit at the referendum.

 

[trueblue]

You are starting to becomes that shade pompous - presumably you are not duped, unlike all the other dimbos on here who are.

There are none more condescending than those who, by an accident of birth and the sheer luck of being born in a rich country, feel they are superior to others.

I'm not duped, no. Because the facts do not support the idea that immigration is the root of all Britain's problems. A contributing factor, yes, but that's all.

 

[alfredmizen]

We might need to do both.

Without doubt as well as areas that have benefited from economic migration to this country, there are areas where public service provision has become far more difficult as a result of it. Even if the net result is an economic benefit for the country as a whole there are areas suffering. Some element of control on overall numbers or even the distribution of those that came here would help to ease this situation

A big mistake that David Cameron made was scrapping the 'migrant impact fund' a Brown policy that diverted resources to those areas disproportionately impacted by immigration and as they weren't ever Tory voting areas, it was an easy thing for them to scrap.

The thing I get so frustrated about with this debate is the inability of the major politcal parties to realise a) The right thing to do is somewhere in the middle b) You can't look at immigration with broad national brushstrokes, the effects of it are so locally nuanced that optimum polices for areas separated by only a couple of miles might be wildly different.

So yes, some elements of control (and not just on overall numbers) may well be useful but let's not kid ourselves that there isn't also a government policy/ funding issue here. For too long, for reason of political expediency on both sides this issue has been presented as a binary choice, it isn't.

You make some good points there

 

[Hastings gull]

No, I'm advocating that we should have the maturity as a country to tax people properly - and, most importantly, make sure the rich pay their taxes - so that we have more money to spend to create a society that works. Not keep cutting back because it's a vote-winner and then be surprised that our hospitals, schools, roads etc are in a shit state.

It's the usual simplistic solution. Most folk would say that they are being taxed "properly" as you vaguely put it. Who are the rich? And if they pay more, then society works -so simple. It is a vote-winner because folk feel that they are already paying too much or at least enough, arguable as that might be, and if we accept uncontrolled immigration, then that means the infrastructure will have to be improved, and paid for. Yet, when you feel you are already paying your fair share and then have to fork out for some more on something you feel is unnecessary, that that is irksome.

 

[alfredmizen]

There are none more condescending than those who, by an accident of birth and the sheer luck of being born in a rich country, feel they are superior to others.

I'm not duped, no. Because the facts do not support the idea that immigration is the root of all Britain's problems. A contributing factor, yes, but that's all.

For a start nobody has implied that they are superior , nor have they implied that immigration is the root cause of problems in this country , merely that it exacerbates them.

 

[Hastings gull]

There are none more condescending than those who, by an accident of birth and the sheer luck of being born in a rich country, feel they are superior to others.

I'm not duped, no. Because the facts do not support the idea that immigration is the root of all Britain's problems. A contributing factor, yes, but that's all.

But no one has said that that it is! You are right in that in that it is a contributory factor. It was you who arrogantly decided to lump everyone else together by saying that they are duped.

 

[trueblue]

But you are advocating ever increasing spending because you are not proposing any limits. This means we cannot build our society because we are spending just to keep still.

Improving the infrastructure creates jobs in itself. It puts money in people's pockets that in turn goes back into our economy. More people are paying tax. How has 'austerity' had a positive impact on the national debt? There are no easy answers but it should be possible to strike a better balance than we have at the moment. There are other measures of a country's success than how rich it's making its highest earners - and that's what Britain is geared towards at the moment.

 

[Yoda]

This thread is becoming a little derailed now isn't it?

 

[trueblue]

But no one has said that that it is! You are right in that in that it is a contributory factor. It was you who arrogantly decided to lump everyone else together by saying that they are duped.

Well, sorry, I'm like that.. being 'a shade pompous' and all. I'm sure you'll get over it.