Lord Mandelson finally admits we shouldn't join Euro.

[Simster]

death penalty(not that im advocating it) , off of the top of my head , there are plenty if i could be bothered to search , both trade related and others, emissions policy, there are lots .

I'm going off for an hour, suffice to say this is a dreadful misrepresentation of the situation, and you haven't even replied properly. To borrow a phrase, that is so laughable that if someone replied like that to you, you'd have said "that's driven a coach and horses through my argument". Terrible.

 

[BigGully]

And why do you keep equating entry to the EU with entry into the Eurozone. They are not the same thing. If they were, how on earth did the EEC/EC/EU survive for DECADES before the € came into force? It is not the same argument at all.

There was always reservation over us joining the € because our economy is structured so differently from large parts of Europe. For a start, we are debt-based because people buy their own houses, which isn't necessarily the culture elsewhere, and yes, the people who had those reservations were proved right. That *doesn't* mean to say that pulling out of the EU entirely isn't a ridiculous idea, because it is. (to me anyway)

The point being that those that are adament that we must stay in the EU are the same people that originally said we should join the Euro, I cannot find an honest Europhile that doesn't admit that.

I like Europe I have lived and worked within it, some years ago granted but we are different and I like that too, we should be trading partners, security partners and friends, but we shouldnt be governed by it.

Its a simple position for me.

 

[Simster]

The point being that those that are adament that we must stay in the EU are the same people that originally said we should join the Euro, I cannot find an honest Europhile that doesn't admit that.

I like Europe I have lived and worked within it, some years ago granted but we are different and I like that too, we should be trading partners, security partners and friends, but we shouldnt be governed by it.

Its a simple position for me.

Not true at all. I was €-sceptical at the time and have always been pro-EU.

 

[cunning fergus]

Yes, yes they do. They can't just manufacture and sell paint with lead in it just because it's cheap. They can't just sell toys considered by the EU too dangerous to toddlers. And more pertinently, they can't just sell us cars with emissions that might pass in smoggy Chinese cities but are considered too polluting here.

Your last point here is genius...........tell me you were being ironic?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/03cdb23a-6758-11e5-a57f-21b88f7d973f.html

I may go out on a limb here too, I don't think VW were acting as covertly as the narrative is currently being run, I reckon plenty of people in the German Govt and EU knew about this practice and accepted it............why so?

Because the interests of global businesses like VW is what the EU serves to protect............EU emission regulations are a gaudy bauble dangled in front of the weak minded to distract them from this reality.

Sorry to break that to you.

 

[BigGully]

Not true at all. I was €-sceptical at the time and have always been pro-EU.

I find that astounding, unless you have views mirrored by the original Common Market template, which is my position, how exactly can you support a continuing political union with all of its consequences whilst not originally supporting a common currency.

Whether its guidelines, policy, laws or currency the key is that the continent is out of sync and corrupts its aims.

 

[alfredmizen]

I'm going off for an hour, suffice to say this is a dreadful misrepresentation of the situation, and you haven't even replied properly. To borrow a phrase, that is so laughable that if someone replied like that to you, you'd have said "that's driven a coach and horses through my argument". Terrible.

it really isnt simster , china has to conform to basic health and safety rules to sell into the EU, there are lots of rules and regulations that we have to conform to both trade and socially rel;ated which china do not, and you can research them if you like .

 

[beorhthelm]

And why do you keep equating entry to the EU with entry into the Eurozone. They are not the same thing. If they were, how on earth did the EEC/EC/EU survive for DECADES before the € came into force? It is not the same argument at all.

likewise we traded with the world for centuries before the EEC, some will maintain not being in the EU will prohibit trade. the point i was making about the euro was that at the time it was claimed being out would deny us investment, this has been shown to be false, and we have avoided a number of problems with the Euro. anyway, i started off answering a question about being out, and gave the answer - sovereignty. the EU is intent on creating a single european state, i don't want to be part of that.

 

[ditchy]

But what people like you continue to ignore is that in order to trade with the EU, we will *still* have to conform to EU standards. It's just that if we are on the outside, we won't get a say on what those standards actually are. Meanwhile, foreign investment will simply ignore the UK and new car plants will be built inside the EU instead, where trade barriers to a market of 400 million people will be considerably easier to overcome.

The whole Brexit argument is a nonsense. And we'd get our way in Europe if our politicians actually politicked properly. Instead, we have David Cameron acting like a tantrumming toddler over pretty much everything - for example who should be the president of the EU commission, where he campaigned to huge affect that Juncker should NOT be that man. And lost the vote 29-2.

Does China comply ?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I don't want to be part of an organisation that forces people in Greece into poverty,

But the Greek's voted in a pro-EU party, who negotiated a EU deal, which was then put to the people only a few weeks ago and voted in. You can't argue with that.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

And more pertinently, they can't just sell us cars with emissions that might pass in smoggy Chinese cities but are considered too polluting here.

Wouldn't happen in Germany

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

how about a body called the european region of trade, industry and commerce? There have been and are many trade agreements in history, you dont need a parliament for a trading bloc. You have a parliament for politics and creation of a state.

EROTIC? Am I missing out on a gag here?

 

[BigGully]

But the Greek's voted in a pro-EU party, who negotiated a EU deal, which was then put to the people only a few weeks ago and voted in. You can't argue with that.

Aaaah come on there isnt any laudable aspects of the Greeks association with the EU.

They were allowed in on cooked books and then they continue to default and default again whilst the EU financially and politically try and dominate the Greek people.

I have a soft spot for the Greeks, I knew they didnt work very hard or pay their taxes but so did Germany and France yet they still invited them into the land of milk and honey and are then surprised that they didnt pay their dues and continue not to work very hard !!!

The consequence has left a wretched country with their future undecided, its a bodge job initiated by the EU.

 

[alfredmizen]

But the Greek's voted in a pro-EU party, who negotiated a EU deal, which was then put to the people only a few weeks ago and voted in. You can't argue with that.

Yet you seem to want to argue the tories dont have a mandate ? You cant have it both ways.

 

[Peteinblack]

Thanks. Your argument is in-line with many, but it's not one that convinces me. What about the loss of sovereignty courtesy of membership of the UN, WTO, IMF, World Bank, Kyoto Protocol, the City of London, finance, capital, ...? Do any of these bother you? Why is it the EU that always gets singled out on the front, and all others are utterly ignored?

This!

Many of our industries and services are now foreign-owned as a consequence of privatisation and globalisation (irrespective of the EU), globalisation being a far bigger threat to national autonomy than the EU in my view. Foreign firms and multinationals - totally unaccountable to anyone than their wealthy self-interested shareholders - can effectively dictate to elected governments and Parliament what employment laws, health-and-safety legislation, levels of tax, levels of minimum wage, they will accept before they relocate elsewhere, yet our flag-waving Tory/UKIP 'patriots' don't seem to mind this erosion of our sovereignty, or handing over control of our economy to international big business.

It's what psychologists call 'cognitive dissonance' - believing in two contradictory beliefs or principles simultaneously, and refusing to recognise or acknowledge the fundamental inconsistency, that one precludes or prevents the other.

 

[Gwylan]

There was only a small gaggle of economist and MP's that foresaw its weakness and likely fall and articulated exactly what was to happen years ahead.

Its those that we need to hear from, those that called it correctly, reasonably argued and formulated reason why they felt it was doomed to failure.

Whatever happened to him?

 

[Peteinblack]

I think that's more-or-less where I am too.

Same here!

The irony is that the things I like best - employment and social protection for workers, 48-hour Working Directive, etc - are precisley the things that Cameron and the Tories want to opt-out of as part of their 'renegotiations'.

So they say that the EU does not benefit ordinary working people, but it is the very things which do benefit ordinary working people that the Right want to extricate Britain from, in the name of 'labour market flexibilty' - Tory/New Labour-speak for longer or more unsocial working hours, shorter holidays, making it easier to sack people, zero-hours contracts, etc.

And our 'patriotic' politicians - claiming to be on the side of 'hard working people' - want to scrap these rights and protections. Utter hypocrites.

 

[Peteinblack]

So, as the dipshit has finally realised he was totally wrong about the Euro, what should we think of his view about staying in Europe.

Convinced me: OUT.

I can really see momentum building towards an OUT vote here. Repatriation of powers from the unelected in Brussels. Especially as CMD will not get enough in the way of reforms to convince the public that he should be trusted.

Be intersting to see how the sweaties react if this happens. Will the have another referendum, even though their public finances would be decimated by the oil price drop.

Next couple of years could be interesting.

To be fair, much as I despise him (for being Tory-lite and arrogant), slimeball Mandelson was not the only senior political figure advocating British membership of the Euro back in the mid-1990s; Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine were to, but Gordon Brown as Chancellor chose to ignore them!

 

[BigGully]

This!

Many of our industries and services are now foreign-owned as a consequence of privatisation and globalisation (irrespective of the EU), globalisation being a far bigger threat to national autonomy than the EU in my view. Foreign firms and multinationals - totally unaccountable to anyone than their wealthy self-interested shareholders - can effectively dictate to elected governments and Parliament what employment laws, health-and-safety legislation, levels of tax, levels of minimum wage, they will accept before they relocate elsewhere, yet our flag-waving Tory/UKIP 'patriots' don't seem to mind this erosion of our sovereignty, or handing over control of our economy to international big business.

It's what psychologists call 'cognitive dissonance' - believing in two contradictory beliefs or principles simultaneously, and refusing to recognise or acknowledge the fundamental inconsistency, that one precludes or prevents the other.

At least globalisation is a net contributor to the UK, we are a modern active member within it, we have no desire to retreat from the dynamics of a modern world, benefiting from it when we can and challenging it when we feel fit.

The EU isnt here to somehow offer you something politically you didnt earn here within the UK on election day.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

Yet you seem to want to argue the tories dont have a mandate ? You cant have it both ways.

Beaten and bloodied by the EU the Greeks vote for the one party they think will take the EU funds but fudge the conditions attached as opposed to the party who would enforce them. Rock/hard place. I shouldn't think the Greeks have anything but contempt for the EU but they need the money.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

yet our flag-waving Tory/UKIP 'patriots' don't seem to mind this erosion of our sovereignty, or handing over control of our economy to international big business.

It's what psychologists call 'cognitive dissonance' - believing in two contradictory beliefs or principles simultaneously, and refusing to recognise or acknowledge the fundamental inconsistency, that one precludes or prevents the other.

What a bizarre post. I probably fall into the group you describe as "flag-waving Tory/UKIP patriots" but I no more want our sovereignty eroded by big business than I do the EU. I'd happily see the likes of Starbucks, Amazon and Sports Direct forced to pay proper tax levels and pay proper wages but that doesn't deflect from the fact I also don't wish the UK to belong or to be controlled by the EU.