[Politics] Lib Dem leadership contest.

[zefarelly]

Possibly so - I don't have numbers, but I'd estimate it's going to be in the hundreds of millions per year on average - this is however very small compared to the ca. £600 billion total annual tax take.

DoW inherits £9 billion . . . . all tied up in trusts. 40% of that is a bit more than hundreds of millions.

off shoring is estimated at £5bn . . .a quick google estimates anything between £30 and £90 bn a year is 'missing' in tax revenue . . . . surely its worth investing in clawing some of that back.

or maybe not if you have fingers in the same pies. and get on well with your 'mates'



the bottom line for me is that inequality is increasing daily in this country and most people are blind to it. How long before the revolt or the revolution. we're clearly a pretty ignorant/tolerant bunch looking at this years activities

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

A true democracy would have compulsory voting and PR rather than FPTP. However, it's disputable whether anything would then get done in the Houses of Parliament. I can only think it would be like the Maybot's hung parliament but with less certainty - or a bit like Italy. You'd also not have a truly "local" MP looking out for their constituents.

The likely outcome of that would be a greater lack of engagement which would lead to spoiling or "none of the above" being the default option, and the need to employ divisive and binary referenda to get things done.

FPTP has its drawbacks but so does everything else ever proposed. And I strongly believe that the people who died for our right to vote also died for our right NOT to vote, even if that means a more reactionary government elected by the over 50s.

Germany has had proportional representation since the war, when the allies insisted/imposed it. It hasn’t done them too badly. It means their politics, I guess, are much more consensual. People and parties HAVE to talk to each other and agree about things, rather than having a bunch of loonies let loose to wreak havoc.

 

[Braggfan]

Not true. As Lib Dems coalition negotiator wrote in the New Statesman: "We found that the Conservatives made major policy concessions, and quickly; while, after three days of talking, Labour was too disorganised or divided even to table clear positions on tax, education spending, pensions or the deficit. And, on voting reform, Ed Balls was bluntly warning us that Labour MPs might not vote for their own manifesto pledge to support a referendum on the Alternative Vote.

Under those circumstances, our decision wasn’t difficult, and it does not need conspiracy theories to understand it. What Labour was offering us was a weak coalition with a divided Labour Party; a coalition with no majority in the House of Commons, no clear policy platform, and no guarantee of a referendum on voting reform. We would have been stark staring mad to accept such a proposition. So, by the time Gordon Brown realised that only a Lib Dem-Labour coalition could keep Labour in power, it was, in effect, one minute past midnight, and too late for such a deal to succeed.

The more interesting question, on which Andrew and others need to reflect, is why Labour did not seize the opportunities to create such a partnership with the Liberal Democrats over the previous 15 years, when partnership was both possible and workable. That is the historic opportunity missed. But I would gently suggest that it is Labour, rather than the Liberal Democrats, which bears the main responsibility for that legacy."

Well I still think it's true that it was offerred, but I guess the potential worth of that offer is what's debatable. It's certainly interesting reading that side of things and hearing the Lib Dem reasons for turning it down. It certainly does seem more justiafiable than I had first thought.

In terms of Labour's faults at not changing the voting system, you have absolutely no complaints from me there. It's a source of great annoyance that they back tracked on their manifesto pledge once they had a large majority. So an addendum to 'Never trust a Tory' should be ' or those Tories masquerading as Labour MP's.'

 

[schmunk]

DoW inherits £9 billion . . . . all tied up in trusts. 40% of that is a bit more than hundreds of millions.
/QUOTE]

I said "on average" - as far as I'm aware he doesn't inherit every year...

 

[London Irish]

Death wish decision, Moran would have stood out far more against the grey men of Labour

 

[zefarelly]

DoW inherits £9 billion . . . . all tied up in trusts. 40% of that is a bit more than hundreds of millions.
/QUOTE]

I said "on average" - as far as I'm aware he doesn't inherit every year...

Its a fairly unique case, I guess the point is, billions of pounds, land, homes property etc are tied up and nailed down to the elite minority and very little gets back to the exchequer and/or people. basically the rich get rich and the poor get poorer. If say the DoW inherited 9 and paid 3.5 in tax he'd hardly be using food banks. . . . which at the poor end of the scale are a new concept . . . how bad is that


Henning Wehn said - “We don't do charity in Germany. We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities."14 Mar 2019

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

https://cherwell.org/2019/12/15/reluctant-lib-dems/
worth a read
regards
DF

 

[beorhthelm]

off shoring is estimated at £5bn . . .a quick google estimates anything between £30 and £90 bn a year is 'missing' in tax revenue . . . . surely its worth investing in clawing some of that back.

when you dig in to estimates, higher ones are include following basic tax law as tax avoidance, such as offsetting capital investments against tax.

 

[Baker lite]

Its a fairly unique case, I guess the point is, billions of pounds, land, homes property etc are tied up and nailed down to the elite minority and very little gets back to the exchequer and/or people. basically the rich get rich and the poor get poorer. If say the DoW inherited 9 and paid 3.5 in tax he'd hardly be using food banks. . . . which at the poor end of the scale are a new concept . . . how bad is that


Henning Wehn said - “We don't do charity in Germany. We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments' responsibilities."14 Mar 2019

Thank goodness we don’t copycat what Germany does....


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[Barnet Seagull]

This ^

I always maintained that even though Corbyn was an incompetent and unappealing leader, many of his policies would be considered mainstream centre-Left in much of Europe - some nationalisation, slightly higher tax on the rich, and a couple of workers on the boards of companies to have a small say in the decisions (which affect them) and improve democracy in the workplace.

Germany has a state-owned railway and worker-directors, for example, yet their leader, Merkel, is a Conservative (Christian Democrat).

The fact that these policies were portrayed as Communist in Britain shows have far to the Right we have moved, certainly on economic issues. It also shows just how powerful much of the press is in defining what is 'acceptable' or 'extremist': the extent to which so many people take their political cues and views from rabidly pro-Conservative papers like the Daily Mail, Daily Express, The Sun, Daily Telegraph, and The Times is astonishing and depressing - and then (without any irony) they'll complain about Left-wing bias in the media and people being indoctrinated or brainwashed!

Most of our national newspapers are owned by billionaire business-men who are naturally hostile to any form of socialism, and so they convince their readers that any policies to tackle poverty, clamp-down on corporate tax-dodging, stop the selling-off of public services to private firms (who are often donors to the Conservative party), tackle homelessness and unaffordable housing, and slightly improve workers' rights or democracy in the workplace, are the work of the Devil, and will turn us into a basket-case like North Korea.

Nice. Saved me some typing.

 

[Blue3]

The LibDems sadly are a spent force with only 11 MPs and a long history behind them their future looks bleak to me, we are now just one nation of four, Scotland and Northan Island may leave the union as the fall out of Brexit unfolds and individual nationalism takes hold across large parts of the World as new alliances are formed it's not a time to be a lone island.
All of this can be directly traced back to is a consiqence of the Conservative LidDem coalition with the exception of nationalism across the rest of world

 

[Bognor Seagull]

Nice. Saved me some typing.

Re-corrected.....

I always maintained that even though Corbyn was an incompetent and unappealing leader, with a rabid anti Semitic tendencies, a minority of his policies would be considered mainstream centre-Left in much of Europe - some nationalisation, much higher tax on the rich, and a couple of workers on the boards of companies to have a small say in the decisions (which affect them) and reduce efficiency in the workplace.

Germany has a state-owned railway and worker-directors, for example, yet their leader, Merkel, is a Conservative (Christian Democrat).

The fact that these policies were portrayed as Communist in Britain is a reflection of our centralist politics certainly on economic issues. It also shows just how powerful much of the press is in defining what is 'acceptable' or 'extremist': the extent to which so many people take their political cues and views from our balanced press including pro-Conservative papers like the Daily Mail, Daily Express, The Sun, Daily Telegraph, left wing papers such as The Mirror, Guardian and most media outlets such as BBC.

Most of our national newspapers are owned by shareholders who are naturally hostile to any form of socialism, and with their owners & their wisdom and view of the world would like the U.K. to be a little more USA than basket nations like North Korea & Venezuela

 

[zefarelly]

Thank goodness we don’t copycat what Germany does....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Que ?

 

[zefarelly]

Re-corrected.....

I always maintained that even though Corbyn was an incompetent and unappealing leader, with a rabid anti Semitic tendencies, a minority of his policies would be considered mainstream centre-Left in much of Europe - some nationalisation, much higher tax on the rich, and a couple of workers on the boards of companies to have a small say in the decisions (which affect them) and reduce efficiency in the workplace.

Germany has a state-owned railway and worker-directors, for example, yet their leader, Merkel, is a Conservative (Christian Democrat).

The fact that these policies were portrayed as Communist in Britain is a reflection of our centralist politics certainly on economic issues. It also shows just how powerful much of the press is in defining what is 'acceptable' or 'extremist': the extent to which so many people take their political cues and views from our balanced press including pro-Conservative papers like the Daily Mail, Daily Express, The Sun, Daily Telegraph, left wing papers such as The Mirror, Guardian and most media outlets such as BBC.

Most of our national newspapers are owned by shareholders who are naturally hostile to any form of socialism, and with their owners & their wisdom and view of the world would like the U.K. to be a little more USA than basket nations like North Korea & Venezuela

Well thats ****ed a grown up thread, bear pit awaits.

A mildly amusing post but for the worrying fact I get the impression you believe what you've typed.