Perhaps, but we all knew that most of the riders were doping. With other sports where fitness is the number one deciding factor in the result, there isn't the peloton or team tactics that result in the mass collusion and acceptance that they were all on drugs. So while drugs is probably a part of many Olympic sports, I don't suppose it's as widespread as it is in cycling (except weightlifting).
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Lance Armstrong ends fight against doping charges
- Thread starter martyn20
- Start date
The original comment was lifted off Cav's twitter feed.
But I do 100% agree.
Personally I don't think there's a profitable professional sport that isn't tainted by drugs.
The greater the money the more the involvement, with Spain & America leading the way, in the western world.
Either it's all going to come tumbling down now.
Or one of the many investigative journalists, who I'm sure are now on the case, will bring any given sport down citing Lance as the springboard, in the future.
Football, Golf & Tennis being in my sights as possibly even dirtier than lil old bike riding.
No chance.
It just doesn't make sense to keep all this delicious training and recovery 'techniques' within the confines of one sport.
Esp when just across the city (in Spain's case) there's 100 times more money to be made.
Did anyone catch Chris Froome's comments on 5 live today? He was saying that he expects to be losing some team mates at sky as a result of them being made to sign a document saying they have never doped, maybe this is old news, but surprised me to hear it said so bluntly?
I completely agree. But when a lot of cyclists are doping, it is simply impossible for a clean rider to win (a tour). That is not the case with Football or Golf. Doping would no doubt help, but it's definitely possible to win without doping. In these interviews about doping within cycling we hear about the 1000 days (it takes before a eider gives in a dopes), and how their salary can go up 10 fold if they dope. A professional golfer or footballer would not face that same decision (sure they have the decision to dope or not, but they have a choice).
Woodchip
It's all about the bikes
But that doesn't mean there aren't footballers taking PEDs. A certain Welsh footballer who is long in the tooth may be able to extend his career another year or two by taking EPO, to ensure he can run the distance of the younger lads. I'm not saying it is definitely happening, but the benefits are there for you to see.
You are making the same assumption as cycling pre Lance.
With Lance it wasn't A doper it was a structured team of doping.
If you could do that within an association that has an anti doping policy image the 'fun' you could have where drug testing hardly happens.
What if the Barca team is founded on chemical recovery.
I'm not saying it is but the question has to be asked.
If it were to be the case how can Madrid keep up with them?
What are the implications of failure?
At that point I would say the level of scandal and effects therein would make football dirtier than lil old bike riding.
As for golf.
Given the choice of not making your tour card or being in the position to sign $250m sponsorship contracts.
I personally don't think Rory is enhanced, but I'm bloody sure there are people who want a piece of the action, that are.
Tennis.
I will put my head above the parapet on this one Rafael Nadal may well be dodgy.
I'd me more surprised if he was clean, hopefully he is.
In an ideal world I'm a cynical old cycling fan who assumes everyone else is at it, because I've been around a sport that has been dirty all the time I've watched.
But as I said, why would you keep all this stuff ring fenced in 1 comparatively poor sport?
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Indurain's Lungs
Legend of Garry Nelson
Good points. You've t to look the Spanish public's attitude to doping to realise how tolerated it is there. In football, EPO could have massive benefits for training and recovery, likewise testosterone.
On another note, heavyweight boxer David Price has said he's never been out of competition tested in 4 years. In response the authorities said they test 800 boxers and have conducted 200 tests over the last 3 years.
That's pitiful, that's an average of 1 out of competition test per boxer every 12 years!
And I didn't say otherwise. Stat Bro said "Football, Golf & Tennis being in my sights as possibly even dirtier than lil old bike riding" which is definitely not the case. Some taking drugs, sure, but everyone that wins taking drugs, no.
Firstly, although we weren't aware of the lengths Lance went to (re the team), we always knew many in the sport were doping (which is not the case in these other sports).
Secondly, if you were a pro cyclist in that era you had to either be off the pace, or dope. It was that simple. That is simply not the case with football or golf. What's the most physically demanding endurance sport in the world - a cycling tour. 20 odd stages of racing. That doesn't happen in football of golf. You don't have to recover as quickly. Sure, it's a benefit if you do recover quickly, you can play more games etc and there will be those that dope, but equally you can rest some games and still be able to be in the team. In tour cycling you don't get to miss a stage.
Doping simply makes more difference to cycling than it does to football or golf, both to the individual, and to the team.
It would be surprising if they were all doping, but that still wouldn't equal cycling, unless you're saying that Man U, Chelsea, Man City, Milan, Madrid, Bayern etc are all doing it too.
I agree they need to be tested, I'm just saying there's no way it's as dirty as cycling, simply because the sport is different.
Because it takes more than dope to win at football. Since you use the US as the drugs powerhouse in the West, they'd have won the WC by now. So would China. But no, the winners keep coming from the teams that were winning 50 years ago.
Not a lot. Every single year, either Barca or Madrid fail to win the title, but they're both still there getting paid a fortune.
Scandal yes, because football is bigger than cycling, but dirtier, no. Is every winner in football doping - no, of course not. The answer in cycling was 'yes, of course'.
So you don't think the number one player is enhanced, but you think it could be as dirty as cycling. That makes no sense. I think it's a fair point that there are people that aren't good enough that want in and try drugs, but it's not required for success like it was in cycling. Tom Watson nearly won the Open a few years ago, which shows how you don't have to be among the fittest in the world to compete in golf. His strength and recovery time would have been worse than everyone else, but he still beat most of them. Obviously something like that couldn't happen in cycling. Did every single winner of a major over the last 15 years dope to win - simply no, they didn't. Up until a couple of years ago, for cycling, they did. They had to.
Well I left tennis out of my argument, because I think there's more to be gained from drugs than in football (and clearly golf). There's only a few players that can win, and they play for 4 hours, then have to do it again, and again, and again all week. If they're tired, they can't be rested like a footballer can, so if one player is doping, that reduces the chances of the other players. They should be tested all the time, and their samples should be kept for as long as possible and re-tested as the testing improves.
Firstly, no one is suggesting it's ring fenced. No doubt there is doping in all these other sports you mention, and in most of the Olympics. You simply over did your argument suggesting football and golf are/could use drugs as much as cycling. Cycling is much more physically demanding over a sustained period, and logic dictates that doping is more important in that sport. And the relative poorness of cycling increases the reason people would dope - and example given in one of the podcasts (maybe Lance's team?) was being on $4,500 a month clean, but having their wages increased to $45,000 if they doped. That's life changing, and one hell of an incentive. All decent footballers are on more than that anyway. If I were on £1m a year as a footballer and was offered £5m a year if I doped (which is a laughable example quite frankly) I can't imagine I'd take it. Your life wouldn't improve with the extra £4m, there'd be no point. But if I was on £40k and offered £400k, in a sport where everyone's at it, I'd find it very difficult to say no.
There are sports in the Olympics which must be ruined by doping. The only thing the Olympics has going for it is that as an organisation it's tried harder (a losing battle) to fight drugs than the UCI.
Wow, what a joke. Boxing is a joke though. Titles are decided by pay per view ratings. I do hope that sport in general can change and learn from the mistakes of cycling.
Horton's halftime iceberg
Blooming Marvellous
Listened to the latest velocast last night and they set out some really solid arguments against the top of the UCI, I really really hope this takes out the top and we get a governing body that is worthy. Check out the opening page as well its fab.
velocast cc - Pat McQuaid Hein Verbruggen Are Corrupt
is this a genuine open letter from Greg Le Mond, I hope so. Because this backs up what the velocast are shouting loud. The court case against Kimmage in Switzerland could be huge.
Can anyone help me out? I know this sounds kind of lame but I am not well versed in social marketing. I would like to send a message to everyone that really loves cycling. I do not use twitter and do not have an organized way of getting some of my own "rage" out. I want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to resign. I have never seen such an abuse of power in cycling's history- resign Pat if you love cycling. Resign even if you hate the sport.
Pat McQuaid, you know dam well what has been going on in cycling, and if you want to deny it, then even more reasons why those who love cycling need to demand that you resign.
I have a file with what I believe is well documented proof that will exonerate Paul.
Pat in my opinion you and Hein are the corrupt part of the sport. I do not want to include everyone at the UCI because I believe that there are many, maybe most that work at the UCI that are dedicated to cycling, they do it out of the love of the sport, but you and your buddy Hein have destroyed the sport.
Pat, I thought you loved cycling? At one time you did and if you did love cycling please dig deep inside and remember that part of your life- allow cycling to grow and flourish- please! It is time to walk away. Walk away if you love cycling.
As a reminder I just want to point out that you recently you accused me of being the cause of USADA's investigation against Lance Armstrong. Why would you be inclined to go straight to me as the "cause"? Why shoot the messenger every time?
Every time you do this I get more and more entrenched. I was in your country over the last two weeks and I asked someone that knows you if you were someone that could be rehabilitated. His answer was very quick and it was not good for you. No was the answer, no, no , no!
The problem for sport is not drugs but corruption. You are the epitome of the word corruption.
You can read all about Webster's definition of corruption. If you want I can re-post my attorney's response to your letter where you threaten to sue me for calling the UCI corrupt. FYI I want to officially reiterate to you and Hien that in my opinion the two of your represent the essence of corruption.
I would encourage anyone that loves cycling to donate and support Paul in his fight against the Pat and Hein and the UCI. Skip lunch and donate the amount that you would have spent towards that Sunday buffet towards changing the sport of cycling. I donated money for Paul's defense, and I am willing to donate a lot more, but I would like to use it to lobby for dramatic change in cycling. The sport does not need Pat McQuaid or Hein Verbruggen- if this sport is going to change it is now. Not next year, not down the road, now! Now or never!
People that really care about cycling have the power to change cycling- change it now by voicing your thought and donating money towards Paul Kimmage's defense, ( Paul, I want to encourage you to not spend the money that has been donated to your defense fund on defending yourself in Switzerland. In my case, a USA citizen, I could care less if I lost the UCI's bogus lawsuit. Use the money to lobby for real change).
If people really want to clean the sport of cycling up all you have to do is put your money where your mouth is.
Don't buy a USA Cycling license. Give up racing for a year, just long enough to put the UCI and USA cycling out of business. We can then start from scratch and let the real lovers in cycling direct where and how the sport of cycling will go.
Please make a difference.
Greg
velocast cc - Pat McQuaid Hein Verbruggen Are Corrupt
is this a genuine open letter from Greg Le Mond, I hope so. Because this backs up what the velocast are shouting loud. The court case against Kimmage in Switzerland could be huge.
Can anyone help me out? I know this sounds kind of lame but I am not well versed in social marketing. I would like to send a message to everyone that really loves cycling. I do not use twitter and do not have an organized way of getting some of my own "rage" out. I want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to resign. I have never seen such an abuse of power in cycling's history- resign Pat if you love cycling. Resign even if you hate the sport.
Pat McQuaid, you know dam well what has been going on in cycling, and if you want to deny it, then even more reasons why those who love cycling need to demand that you resign.
I have a file with what I believe is well documented proof that will exonerate Paul.
Pat in my opinion you and Hein are the corrupt part of the sport. I do not want to include everyone at the UCI because I believe that there are many, maybe most that work at the UCI that are dedicated to cycling, they do it out of the love of the sport, but you and your buddy Hein have destroyed the sport.
Pat, I thought you loved cycling? At one time you did and if you did love cycling please dig deep inside and remember that part of your life- allow cycling to grow and flourish- please! It is time to walk away. Walk away if you love cycling.
As a reminder I just want to point out that you recently you accused me of being the cause of USADA's investigation against Lance Armstrong. Why would you be inclined to go straight to me as the "cause"? Why shoot the messenger every time?
Every time you do this I get more and more entrenched. I was in your country over the last two weeks and I asked someone that knows you if you were someone that could be rehabilitated. His answer was very quick and it was not good for you. No was the answer, no, no , no!
The problem for sport is not drugs but corruption. You are the epitome of the word corruption.
You can read all about Webster's definition of corruption. If you want I can re-post my attorney's response to your letter where you threaten to sue me for calling the UCI corrupt. FYI I want to officially reiterate to you and Hien that in my opinion the two of your represent the essence of corruption.
I would encourage anyone that loves cycling to donate and support Paul in his fight against the Pat and Hein and the UCI. Skip lunch and donate the amount that you would have spent towards that Sunday buffet towards changing the sport of cycling. I donated money for Paul's defense, and I am willing to donate a lot more, but I would like to use it to lobby for dramatic change in cycling. The sport does not need Pat McQuaid or Hein Verbruggen- if this sport is going to change it is now. Not next year, not down the road, now! Now or never!
People that really care about cycling have the power to change cycling- change it now by voicing your thought and donating money towards Paul Kimmage's defense, ( Paul, I want to encourage you to not spend the money that has been donated to your defense fund on defending yourself in Switzerland. In my case, a USA citizen, I could care less if I lost the UCI's bogus lawsuit. Use the money to lobby for real change).
If people really want to clean the sport of cycling up all you have to do is put your money where your mouth is.
Don't buy a USA Cycling license. Give up racing for a year, just long enough to put the UCI and USA cycling out of business. We can then start from scratch and let the real lovers in cycling direct where and how the sport of cycling will go.
Please make a difference.
Greg
Horton's halftime iceberg
Blooming Marvellous
If you want to skip lunch or a coffee like Greg suggests and help Paul Kimmage (his 'rough ride' a classic anti doping cycling book) take on the top of the UCI, a donation link is on here, he is about 50,000 dollars short at present.
Paul Kimmage Defense Fund | NY Velocity - New York bike racing culture, news and events
Paul Kimmage Defense Fund | NY Velocity - New York bike racing culture, news and events
Seagull58
In the Algarve
I can't see the golf thing at all. It's not a strength and endurance sport but a skill sport. Tennis is much more possible. As for football, well, Juventus players were taking creatin more than 10 years ago when it was still legal. It wouldn't surprise if there were some drugs used to help with endurance and strength. I'm not sure that Barce need it though! Taking drugs doesn't necessarily help you make 800+ successful passes in a match and its not as if they sprint all over the pitch for 90 minutes.
Horton's halftime iceberg
Blooming Marvellous
Would be fascinating to know what Real Madrid and Barcelona players and management were doing with Doctor Fuentes, with what we now know he does, i am sure they were not discussing tippy tappy tactics, perhaps like the cycling over time it will come out. From the good doctor December 2010, he is quoted saying: "If I would talk, the Spanish football team would be stripped of the 2010 World Cup"
Eufemiano Fuentes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
On 5 July 2006, Fuentes was indignant that only cyclists had been named and said he also worked with tennis and football players.[2] On 27 July 2006, IAAF was assured by Spanish prosecutors that no track and field athletes were involved.[52] On 23 September 2006, former cyclist Jesús Manzano told reporters from France 3 that he had seen "well-known footballers" from La Liga visit the offices of Dr Fuentes.[53]
In May 2007 Sepp Blatter, president of FIFA, at a World Anti-Doping Agency meeting in Montreal, was reportedly interested in the contents "of the Puerto file".[54] Le Monde had reported in December 2006 that they had possession of documents of Fuentes detailing "seasonal preparation plans" for Spanish football clubs FC Barcelona and Real Madrid. These plans did not specifically name any players.[55] This news seem to be only rumors, since the French journal lost its trials in 2009 and 2011 against the FC Barcelona because he could not produce any proof of its allegations. In the ultimate judgement, on 14 November 2011, it was condemned to pay 15,000 euros of indemnity for "using false and unverified facts".[56]
Very interesting that too a man nearly all Spanish cyclists feel Lance is being badly treated, with many defending him!
mejonaNO12 aka riskit
Well-known member
I've skim-read the last few posts so maybe I've COMPLETELY missed the boat, but has there ever been a serious case of 'doping' in football? I assume in Rugby people have been banned for steroid use to improve strength but I can't remember any footy ones that wern't recreational drugs.
Maybe i'm being FAR too simplistic, but I've always assumed doping only really suits power sports. I.e RUNNING, CYCLING, ROWING, WEIGHT LIFITING. Of course a drug to improve a players individual power is beneficial, but it's still reliant on the 10 other players.
A footballer has to make hundreds of small decisions when on the ball. Which way to run, look up, assess the space, read the runs, do I play it long?, do I dribble, do I go for the return ball after playing it? etc etc. It's CONSTANT decision making.
Running and cycling (more running has less decisions to make as cycling) is purely run/peddle. It's a power boost.
No offence to the cylclists!
Maybe i'm being FAR too simplistic, but I've always assumed doping only really suits power sports. I.e RUNNING, CYCLING, ROWING, WEIGHT LIFITING. Of course a drug to improve a players individual power is beneficial, but it's still reliant on the 10 other players.
A footballer has to make hundreds of small decisions when on the ball. Which way to run, look up, assess the space, read the runs, do I play it long?, do I dribble, do I go for the return ball after playing it? etc etc. It's CONSTANT decision making.
Running and cycling (more running has less decisions to make as cycling) is purely run/peddle. It's a power boost.
No offence to the cylclists!
Horton's halftime iceberg
Blooming Marvellous
Well hence my post above, we have always been aware of what drugs can do in cycling, would be good to know why the Big massive spanish teams and national team are associated with the dodgy doctor.
?
Incredible Argentina action and goal by Diego Maradona vs Greece (World Cup 1994) - YouTube
I used Barca as a reference for 2 reasons:-
1 - They are the biggest side in club football with a talismanic leader.
2 - The Spanish doctors now with life bans from cycling all have Valencia and Barca on their CV's.
This weeks Football Ramble podcast were marveling at Messi playing in South America 48 hours before playing and scoring a hattrick in La Liga. Yes it may well show how brilliant he is, but we also all know, esp the doctors connected to the club, of another way, wink wink.
Soccerball is an irrelevance in the US.
You walk into a Gridiron, Baseball, Basketball Ice Hockey locker room and shout drugs test, then gauge the reaction
Chicken and egg
If my curmudgeonly cynicism were to have even a grain of truth, it would point at the last 2 World Cups and 1 European Championship, & x amount of Champs leagues a damn sight bigger than Le Tour.
Tom Watson wasn't playing week in week out, zig zagging across the country.
The USPGA has NO drug testing, and the players fought hard against it the last time it was mentioned.
Long gone are the days of Fuzzy Zoeller lumbering around the course, this is big business.
Players are crumbing right before our eyes stupidly prematurely.
I absolutely 100% agree.
I am be incredibly cynical, and I don't actually foresee a massive tumbling down of all organised sport.
What I do see is a lot of people, who have previously said:-
'ah cycling is just individual cheats cheating'.
Now saying:-
'Hang on a minute this is massive well documented multi million dollar industry with proven results in athletic ability and recovery, who else?'.
The thing is, if you don't test there's not a problem.
But that doesn't mean there's no drugs.
As Lance has proved it's not just about steroids bulk up stronger job done, anymore.
There is as much importance in recovery from the activity and be ready for the next.
Not to mention being able to train longer.
EPO helps keep oxygen in your blood longer so you can play for longer, right up to the 94th minute, over and over again.
I keep saying I'm cynical.
Hopeful this is just my frustration in Lance for bring a sh*t storm down on 'my' sport.
But I feel there are cases to be answered.
I'm probably just as cynical. I don't think cyclists as people are any different than the other sportsmen you mention, it's just that some sports are more suited to doping than others (as previously discussed).