No - I wasn't saying that. I just don't think we can say that the £300 benefit reduction is balanced by the £400 pension increase.
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[Politics] Labour Party meltdown incoming.......
- Thread starter nevergoagain
- Start date
Weststander
Well-known member
The 880k aren’t being handed pension credit, unless they’re prepared to do the exhaustive process, which they haven’t until now.
All of which will not help 2m others who until now, with the 880k, received WFP’s.
Weststander
Well-known member
The charities and union leaders aren’t being disingenuous.
That makes no sense. Of course it balances with a tidy hundred leftover.
They’re always upset about something.
Weststander
Well-known member
The uplift in pensions next April post event, covers old general inflation in goods and services. Like us all, pensioners are paying more for things. Albeit on this occasion 2% above that old inflation.
People must also remember that large numbers of pensioners, due to old pension/NIC arrangements, do not receive the headline rate always stated in the media. They receive less.
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Weststander
Well-known member
Bloody charities!
Current inflation is something like 2.2% - so a rise of £250 in the pension would just keep pace with inflation. So, the 'rise' is really only effectively £150 or so.
I wonder whether the outcry would have been the same if Labour had said that they were getting rid of the Triple Lock, and reverted to inflation increases. That would have generated around half of the savings that the WFP cut will - but I bet there would have been less discussion. In fact it would have saved more than half, as I read today that there has been quite a lot of new applications for pension credit (good), which will take out some of the proposed savings.
chip
Well-known member
Good to know that these 1700 will get WFP with their JSA:
www.theguardian.com
Police ‘left to deal with fallout’ of poorly planned early release of 1,700 prisoners
Police association chief says criminals potentially being freed in England and Wales without proper rehabilitation plans
www.theguardian.com
crookie
Well-known member
They did this on the Jeremy Vine show last week. People ringing in who said they'd applied for pension credit 9 weeks ago, and had heard nothing. Waiting list is going on months. In theory the help might be there, but if your claim can't be processed because of a lack of staff/will, the help patently isn't there
BenGarfield
Active member
Whats your evidence for this assertion?
seagullwedgee
Well-known member
- Aug 9, 2005
- 3,069
The WFP is not taxable. But the basic state pension is. So it’s pretty much level.
Weststander
Well-known member
Which will never help pensioner households with weekly income equal/greater than £218.15 if they’re single, or £332.95 for a couple.
BenGarfield
Active member
The problem is many older people dont like the idea of claiming benefits because of the social stigma and because of the complications involved.
Would you get rid of all universal benefits ?
I can understand that. Probably better to freeze then. No shame in that.
crookie
Well-known member
You're better than that
Well, really. Make sense man. The help is there. There’s little anyone can do if people aren’t willing to accept it.
This whole argument is ridiculous and there is a handful of people on one side of the argument who are frankly, pompous and self righteous. Which would be fine if they were also being truthful and accurate.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
I wouldn’t say ‘tearing itself apart’, we are not at the level of the US yet!
The elderly, the ‘poor’, the ‘sick’, the ‘disabled’ the ‘homeless’, the ‘unemployed’, asylum seekers, teachers, nurses, other public sector workers, the ‘working class’, their kids etc - All of them rightly deserve the support of any compassionate society but these groups also serve as a useful peg on which some provocateurs like to hang their biased political agendas on and they end up being political footballs on all sides of the political divide. That can make people lose sight of the bigger picture imo and intensify the conflict.
I don’t think anyone on this thread agrees with withdrawing Government handouts from those that really need it, that would be utterly heartless - the disagreement to me seems to revolve around people having different criteria for defining ’need’ and a lack of an objective level of income at which point people cease to be ‘needy’.
Pensioners have benefited from many local government Warm Home grants in recent years offering them free loft insulations, new thermostats and radiators and free dampproofing as well as large discounts on more efficient boilers. Grants that simply were not available to anyone that wasn’t a pensioner nor in receipt of means tested benefits. These need to be included in any discussion about helping the elderly stay warm in their own homes.
Defining ‘need’ is not something that can be resolved as it largely depends on differing value judgments about lifestyle choices and often grievances over one’s personal circumstances and one’s own age of course. It also depends on being informed about the grants and benefits certain groups are already advantaged by.
What we do know is that the UK is grappling with a 4.4% deficit and public debt that is fast approaching 100% of GDP. With an aging population, unless we increase the productivity of the population still under retirement age, there will be even less money to support future pensioners.
TL;DR
It is a moral imperative in any ‘decent’ society to be concerned about pensioners and anyone in need but we also have to see the bigger picture and the cost of specific policy decisions to society as a whole. We also ought to be better informed about other forms of support that is already available to large sectors of the population by virtue of their vulnerability and help convey that to them. Above all, we should accept that ‘need’ is not a fixed idea but a highly interpretive concept.
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beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,023
1920's Germany, Argentina on and off past 50 years, '00's Zimbabwe, Venezuela past decade or so. it's so frequently demostrated that loose monetry policy trashes currency value it's comical to pretend otherwise. there is no infinite money glitch without screwing the economy.
fortunatly we have people in charge of fiscal and monetry policies that dont belief in fairy tales and will avoid those mistakes.
BenGarfield
Active member
We are not `grappling` with a deficit - this is economic nonsense. Somehow Japan has continuously high deficits, high public debt, (around 200%) Mainstream economists predicted rising interest rates and bond yields, accelerating inflation and, inevitable government insolvency. All predictions failed to materialise because the underlying economic theory is wrong.. Japan has maintained low unemployment, low inflation, zero interest rates and strong demand for government debt.I wouldn’t say ‘tearing itself apart’, we are not at the level of the US yet!
The elderly, the ‘poor’, the ‘sick’, the ‘disabled’ the ‘homeless’, the ‘unemployed’, asylum seekers, teachers, nurses, other public sector workers, the ‘working class’, their kids etc - All of them rightly deserve the support of any compassionate society but these groups also serve as a useful peg on which some provocateurs like to hang their biased political agendas on and they end up being political footballs all sides of the political divide. That can make people lose sight of the bigger picture imo and intensify the conflict.
I don’t think anyone on this thread agrees with withdrawing Government handouts from those that really need it, that would be utterly heartless - the disagreement to me seems to revolve around people having different criteria for defining ’need’ and a lack of an objective level of income at which point people cease to be ‘needy’.
Pensioners have benefited from many local Warm Home grants in recent years offering them free loft insulations, new thermostats and radiators and free dampproofing as well as large discounts on more efficient boilers. Grants that simply were not available to anyone that wasn’t a pensioner nor in receipt of means tested benefits. These need to be included in any discussion about helping the elderly stay warm in their own homes.
Defining ‘need’ is not something that can be resolved as it largely depends on differing value judgments about lifestyle choices and often grievances over one’s personal circumstances and one’s own age of course. It also depends on being informed about the grants and benefits certain groups are already advantaged by.
What we do know is that the UK is grappling with a 4.4% deficit and public debt that is fast approaching 100% of GDP. With an aging population, unless we increase the productivity of the population still under retirement age, there will be even less money to support future pensioners.
TL;DR
It is a moral imperative in any ‘decent’ society to be concerned about pensioners and anyone in need but we also have to see the bigger picture and the cost of specific policy decisions to society as a whole. We also ought to be better informed about other forms of support that is already available to large sectors of the population by virtue of their vulnerability and help convey that to them. Above all, we should accept that ‘need’ is not a fixed idea but a highly interpretive concept.