[Politics] Labour Party meltdown incoming.......

[Is it PotG?]

Correct, it would be outrageous for a politician to claim that we should “let the bodies pile high in their thousands”, I’m sure you would agree?

I'm sure you were aware that the comment was aimed at the Starmer fans supporting this cull.
But 10 points for the link.

 

[Weststander]

Mick Lynch (not a LP member) enjoying this Winter Fuel furore. Has the full attention of the media.

Unlikely ally of wealthy pensioners.

 

[Peteinblack]

Not having a degree isn't the blocker to being successful that a lot of people seem to think it is, especially in the digital world, you can make your own way through hard work and good ideas if you want to. Certain careers obviously do correctly require certain qualifications and I'd be sympathetic to those degrees having some level of funding. Apprentice wages are dreadful I agree, but a trade/craft is being learned and the end state is coming out with a marketable skill, plus the employer is paying you to complete formal training at college etc. and not at your place of work. I would compare that favourably to effectively being at 6th form for 2 years not earning anything.

The typical philistine Tory attitude that education is only about employment and serving the economy, rather than having any cultural or social benefits.

I believe the same crude view of education was prevalent among the Communist rulers of the old Soviet Union. Don’t want the proletariat and peasants getting ideas above their station; keep them uneducated and easier to indoctrinate.

 

[Peteinblack]

I'm sure you were aware that the comment was aimed at the Starmer fans supporting this cull.
But 10 points for the link.

Cull? the same emotive and extreme language used by the Daily Mail to whip-up anti-Labour hysteria.

Did you complain about Boris Johnson’s initial disregard for COVID, and his ”let the bodies pile high” dismissal of taking it seriously.

 

[Bodian]

Well, it would be a start and give time to devise a fairer scheme.
Alternatively, I understand that ‘Money Expert’ Martin Lewis put forward a suggestion of giving the payment to those in the lower council tax bands….not perfect, but possibly worth consideration.
Yes, the 40% bracket.

I'm in a Band B Council Tax property. But I don't think I'll need the WFP when I retire in a few years' time. But I guess that would be a way of encouraging pensioners to downsize into more manageable properties maybe?

 

[Weststander]

The typical philistine Tory attitude that education is only about employment and serving the economy, rather than having any cultural or social benefits.

I believe the same crude view of education was prevalent among the Communist rulers of the old Soviet Union. Don’t want the proletariat and peasants getting ideas above their station; keep them uneducated and easier to indoctrinate.

Germany unparalleled apprenticeship takes 50% of school leavers through a dual training/education system, to a highly skilled level.

Whilst the numbers graduating per capita are half that of the UK.

Their economy naturally absorbs the highly skilled, whilst large numbers of graduates have for 20 years ended up doing jobs not reflecting their level of education. Notwithstanding a three year once in a lifetime experience.

 

[nevergoagain]

The typical philistine Tory attitude that education is only about employment and serving the economy, rather than having any cultural or social benefits.

I believe the same crude view of education was prevalent among the Communist rulers of the old Soviet Union. Don’t want the proletariat and peasants getting ideas above their station; keep them uneducated and easier to indoctrinate.

OK comrade whatever you say.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Strange take, your prerogative and assume you'll give any inheritance to charity then if fortunate enough to receive some but that doesn't make you the voice for everyone else.

Throughout my working life I've struggled to get on the housing market and then family comes along and I worked hard to provide a better future for them. You seem to be saying it's all about the individual but I worked for my family to give them a good life and a future, that's my reward in life. Being able to do that, by leaving them set up for the future should be my choice and I don't believe the government should be able to take a huge chunk. I'm not expecting my kids to then kick back and do nothing, I fully expect them to work contribute etc. as I did so they wouldn't be the welfare scroungers you describe.

I had a very similar life, single parent council estate upbringing, struggling to buy my first property and then working extremely hard to give my kids a good start (and better than I got )

I had a chat with my kids recently and they're happy to share the first million between them tax free, and then pay tax on any million(s) beyond that. Maybe your kids, being part of the 4%, have been bought up to expect far more than that

 

[Pavilionaire]

I don’t think most people would disagree that there is a strong case for ceasing the ‘universality’ of the WFP,(see my reply to Watford z), but there is a huge case to say that it is wrong to withdraw this benefit from those on very modest earnings just above the pension credit eligibility.
As far as young people are concerned, they are considered not to be as vulnerable to the cold weather as older people. Surely you can see this. As far as the triple lock is concerned, I am certain that this will be scrutinised by the powers that be and there will surely be a case to be argued that it is unsustainable for all pensioners to receive. Back to young people, I have three children who all pay substantial/humungeous rent for their accommodation and I feel a great deal of sympathy for their generation, but I don’t think that has any bearing on the WFP situation.
Whether one agrees with the ‘economy is f—-ed’ assertion or not, or whether one agrees that it is not as bleak as it is being painted by Starmer and Reeves, the discussion we are having here is whether it is right for Starmer and Reeves to have taken away the WFP from a considerable number of older people on low incomes, to try and put matters right. My view, and that of many others, is that it isn’t. You and I will, in the time honoured fashion, have to agree to disagree.
Finally, in case you wanted to know, I was not one of those over 65’s who voted for Brexit. I was horrified by the result.

Fair enough.

I see your point, but I feel strongly that the system of taxation and benefits is all wrong, and the government are right to look to eliminate discrimination in the system. With computerisation now the days of universal payments of Child Benefit, Winter Fuel Payments, pensioner Christmas bonus should be long gone, and they should also bin off the outdated Marriage Allowance. Why should two people get a tax break over unmarried people just because of a piece of paper?

I also believe that today's older generation have had plenty of time to save to provide for their old age, and whilst - as Labour say - there must be a safety net, I wonder where today's youth will be when they are pensioners? For the last 120 years the average house price has been between 4x and 6x average earnings, barring blips in WW1 and WW2. That changed around 2000, and now the average house price is 9x average earnings.

To put that in perspective, the last time it was this high was 150 years ago. The wealth inequality is - literally - Dickensian.

I prepare Tax Returns for people and I see pensioners sitting on mountains of cash they don't know what to do with in house worth a fortune that are often too big for them, while the family waits for them to die off so the grandkids can inherit money in order to buy their first property.

I know not every pensioner is well off, but I worry that today's kids will look at their economic reality and give up. I'm not surprised there is a rise in mental illness.

This media-fuelled furore about Winter Fuel Payments is SO depressing because they are completely missing the point. The government already have a job on their hands to repair the damage of the last 14 years without all this additional, unnecessary pressure being heaped upon them. They were elected with a landslide so let them get on with the job their way, and give them time.

 

[Ding Dong !]

Heard on the radio today that 27% of Pensioners in the UK are millionaires !!!.................1 in 4 and that is a huge number. There's serious wealth out there with the older generation

Why not help younger people , individuals and families with the Winter fuel allowance.

 

[Weststander]

Heard on the radio today that 27% of Pensioners in the UK are millionaires !!!.................1 in 4 and that is a huge number. There's serious wealth out there with the older generation

Why not help younger people , individuals and families with the Winter fuel allowance.

That stat is correct. ONS and other data online shows that.

There would be significant numbers of others in addition to that, who receive very generous final benefit pensions, the actuarial equivalent value of which would be seven figures. Before factoring in home equity and ISA’s.

 

[Guinness Boy]

The typical philistine Tory attitude that education is only about employment and serving the economy, rather than having any cultural or social benefits.

I believe the same crude view of education was prevalent among the Communist rulers of the old Soviet Union. Don’t want the proletariat and peasants getting ideas above their station; keep them uneducated and easier to indoctrinate.

It’s also the view of that champion of the working class Nigel Farage.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Perhaps if it hadn't been for the financial damage caused by Brexit, these measures wouldn't be needed.

But, I guess you knew what you were voting for.....

Agree.

But £60 BILLION on Furlough probably pays a part too.

Seems to have been forgotten.

Yes, furlough was needed, but we (UK / Sunak) had the most generous scheme in Europe......which was dreadfully abused.

Also, according to Laura Kuenssberg in Sunday morning's interview with KS, approx £10billion of the £22 billion black hole is going to the above inflation public sector pay rises.....so the LP didn't inherit a £22 Billion black hole.....

The withdrawl of the WFA is a massive own goal from Reeves - and I suspect won't be forgotten in a hurry.

I wonder how many Labour MPs (especially the new ones - looking at you Beccy Cooper and Chris Ward) will have the guts to vote against it, and how many will take the easy option and abstain.

Particullay interested in Chris Ward as he represents Whitehawk, one of the most deprived parts of Brighton, where my Labour Party card-carrying 87 year old mother-in-law lives.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Agree.

But £60 BILLION on Furlough probably pays a part too.

Seems to have been forgotten.

Yes, furlough was needed, but we (UK / Sunak) had the most generous scheme in Europe......which was dreadfully abused.

Also, according to Laura Kuenssberg in Sunday morning's interview with KS, approx £10billion of the £22 billion black hole is going to the above inflation public sector pay rises.....so the LP didn't inherit a £22 Billion black hole.....

The withdrawl of the WFA is a massive own goal from Reeves - and I suspect won't be forgotten in a hurry.

I wonder how many Labour MPs (especially the new ones - looking at you Beccy Cooper and Chris Ward) will have the guts to vote against it, and how many will take the easy option and abstain.

Particullay interested in Chris Ward as he represents Whitehawk, one of the most deprived parts of Brighton, where my Labour Party card-carrying 87 year old mother-in-law lives.

And if we're going to go down the Covid route the previous government's incompetence / helping out their mates saw 4 billion pounds worth of useless PPE in the UK. Source? The UK Parliament itself.

Labour aren't taking away this payment from ALL old people (despite the press reporting that is at best misleading) and I'd expect most pensioners in Whitehawk to qualify for Pension Credit. One of the things this has done is raise awareness that this should be being claimed where it wasn't, but people who are entitled to it weren't claiming. Those people will suddenly find themselves with extra money via the credit, another rise in their pension next year thanks to preserving triple lock and keeping their Winter Heating payments.

There are some on the cusp who will be worse off till the next triple lock kicks in. There are plenty with comfortable pensions in houses with hundreds of thousands of equity crying over 300 quid.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Much bigger injustices in the current system than the WFA.

Why do we have to start with the generation that have had all the benefits of the past 40 years?

Stop tarring all pensiners with the same brush

And if we're going to go down the Covid route the previous government's incompetence / helping out their mates saw 4 billion pounds worth of useless PPE in the UK. Source? The UK Parliament itself.

Labour aren't taking away this payment from ALL old people (despite the press reporting that is at best misleading) and I'd expect most pensioners in Whitehawk to qualify for Pension Credit. One of the things this has done is raise awareness that this should be being claimed where it wasn't, but people who are entitled to it weren't claiming. Those people will suddenly find themselves with extra money via the credit, another rise in their pension next year thanks to preserving triple lock and keeping their Winter Heating payments.

There are some on the cusp who will be worse off till the next triple lock kicks in. There are plenty with comfortable pensions in houses with hundreds of thousands of equity crying over 300 quid.

(1) Absolutlety agree - one of the reason they were booted out.

(2) Agree again - but there are over a million who are not on pension credit who will be worse £300.00 worse off

(3) Remind me - when do fuel bills go up? - When do pensions increase?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Agree.

But £60 BILLION on Furlough probably pays a part too.

Seems to have been forgotten.

Yes, furlough was needed, but we (UK / Sunak) had the most generous scheme in Europe......which was dreadfully abused.

Also, according to Laura Kuenssberg in Sunday morning's interview with KS, approx £10billion of the £22 billion black hole is going to the above inflation public sector pay rises.....so the LP didn't inherit a £22 Billion black hole.....

The withdrawl of the WFA is a massive own goal from Reeves - and I suspect won't be forgotten in a hurry.

I wonder how many Labour MPs (especially the new ones - looking at you Beccy Cooper and Chris Ward) will have the guts to vote against it, and how many will take the easy option and abstain.

Particullay interested in Chris Ward as he represents Whitehawk, one of the most deprived parts of Brighton, where my Labour Party card-carrying 87 year old mother-in-law lives.

I see Laura is still pushing the Tory party line. Others, who are actually in the know, disagree

Cabinet Secretary backs Labour in ‘Tory £22bn black hole’ row​

Britain’s top civil servant has rebuked the Conservatives for suggesting Labour exaggerated the scale of the black hole in the public finances when Sir Keir Starmer took office. In a response leaked to the BBC, Mr Case said the discrepancy could be explained by the rushed parliamentary timetable in the run up to the general election.

In the letter, seen by the BBC, he said: “I would also note that the sizeable in-year changes to spending plans in recent years have resulted from the lack of a new Spending Review to replan departmental budgets in the face of significant pressures which have materialised since budgets were set in 2021.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...1&cvid=029fe982581c4586a316f2400d6b66e9&ei=21

If a government doesn't review it's budgets for years on end, it can hardly be a surprise that they are miles out

 

[Hotchilidog]

It is astonishing to me that given the parlous state of the public finances the first people a Labour government want to hit are freezing pensioners and hungry kids.

It's performative gesture politics where making "tough choices" is seen some rite of passage for a macho style of government. It is quite frankly pathetic. Getting rid of WFP and keeping the two child cap are choices, other choices are available.

Other than the addition of VAT on private school fees I fail to see any "tough choices" being made that actually affect people that DO have money.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

It is astonishing to me that given the parlous state of the public finances the first people a Labour government want to hit are freezing pensioners and hungry kids.

It's performative gesture politics where making "tough choices" is seen some rite of passage for a macho style of government. It is quite frankly pathetic. Getting rid of WFP and keeping the two child cap are choices, other choices are available.

Other than the addition of VAT on private school fees I fail to see any "tough choices" being made that actually affect people that DO have money.

Agree.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Stop tarring all pensiners with the same brush

(1) Absolutlety agree - one of the reason they were booted out.

(2) Agree again - but there are over a million who are not on pension credit who will be worse £300.00 worse off

(3) Remind me - when do fuel bills go up? - When do pensions increase?

All pensioners do come from the generation that have benefited from low taxation and triple lock pensions.
That isn't tarring them all with the same brush...

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I find it staggering that this is the Labour Party doing this.

Tory Party - yep, I would understand if it was them doing this.