Labour has turned into a party of the middle classes

[1066familyman]

Plus the fact that going in with Bush, the USA banks etc made lots of money from the war........surprise surprise one of them J P Morgan pay him 2m a year.....hand in hand, good Labour values eh.

It's a bit rich when Tory voters bash Blair for the Iraq war.

Note that foreign policy barely, if at all, comes into election campaigns. That's because all our mainstream parties have the same world view in terms of who's friend from foe, and no party would stop saying "How high?" when the U.S.A says "Jump!". The idea that a Tory Government would ever say no, and mean no, to the Americans is just laughable. See how Thatcher, the Iron Lady herself, dealt with the illegal USA invasion of Granada, an independent COMMONWEALTH nation. I've provided a Tory link for you lest I be accused of believing everything I read in The Guardian

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...led-newly-declassified-White-House-tapes.html

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Please define 'Middle Class' ?

Between working and upper class, and often with a conservatory and a bored wife.

 

[Soulman]

It's a bit rich when Tory voters bash Blair for the Iraq war.

Note that foreign policy barely, if at all, comes into election campaigns. That's because all our mainstream parties have the same world view in terms of who's friend from foe, and no party would stop saying "How high?" when the U.S.A says "Jump!". The idea that a Tory Government would ever say no, and mean no, to the Americans is just laughable. See how Thatcher, the Iron Lady herself, dealt with the illegal USA invasion of Granada, an independent COMMONWEALTH nation. I've provided a Tory link for you lest I be accused of believing everything I read in The Guardian

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...led-newly-declassified-White-House-tapes.html

Well seeing as you answered my post........firstly i am not one of the "Tory voters", so the rest of the post i can take on board.

 

[1066familyman]

I understand what you're saying but my view is that the traditional working class have views thay are no longer able to be pigeonholed as left or right wing. In my view this needs to be include

- employment protection
- Effective public services such as education and health free at the point of use
- Control on immigration
- Benefits that support people who 'want to do the right thing'
- Housing availability ( and given nobody is going to promote a policy to reduce house prices this means social housing or cheap access to loans or effective rental policies)
- Fair tax policies and reduction in avoidance and evasion

That's a fair mix of things

From that list housing particularly stands out for me on a personal level. Labour have done nothing to address the imbalance caused by the travesty of Thatcher buying working class votes with the selling off of Council houses.

Housing really is a key issue that Labour have consistently failed to address, forget the aspiration bollox. Even fairly high earners with a decent joint income are now finding themselves trapped in the private rented sector, the very 'middle class' voters they're supposed to be reaching out to. The housing market is a mess with the result that the young generation without wealthy parents or an inheritance have a bleak future ahead where no amount of "aspiration" is likely to offer a better future without major policy change from future Governments, and anyone who's missed the property owning boat, often through no fault of their own, now that it's sailed is left high and dry and paying through the nose to fatten up the buy to let brigade. The Housing Benefit bill to the taxpayer alone should be something to set the alarm bells ringing.

It's lazy to just bandy this "aspiration" word about without taking a wider view of society, peoples place in society, and the roles that need fulfilling for a healthy society to function effectively rather than one that sees us all trying to clamber over each other in a bid to reach higher up the greasy pole where "aspiration" is the watch word and those at the bottom of the pole are sneered at because they haven't shown enough "aspiration". There you go, aspiration used four times in one paragraph, just to try to catch up with the amount of times the bloody word will be used in this thread and the countless others about what a new vision for the Labour party should entail.

 

[Buzzer]

Absolutely spot on., I agree, housing and NHS should be the number one priorities.

 

[1066familyman]

Absolutely spot on., I agree, housing, NHS

The thing is Buzzer, I personally don't necessarily want to get on the housing ladder, shall we say I don't "aspire" to home ownership. I remain on the Left wing with my number 11 shirt, was brought up in a council house and would be quite happy living in social housing now. Yet my parents personally, and their generation, sold us out when they bought our council house, and despite being married to an immigrant (certain sections of the media would have us believe that immigrants automatically get 'given' a council house) we have absolutely no chance of getting social housing because our "needs are being met" in the private sector, i.e with Housing Benefit top ups that are going straight into private landlords' pockets.

As you mention the NHS. I believe this was another major flaw with Labour's election campaign. No one really believe that even the Tories would dismantle the NHS completely, which is what Labour were implying with their "Save our NHS" message. And while we're at it, why did Labour allow Dave to get away with waving that silly little - there's no money left - letter around? It's a standard treasury in-joke letter left by every party ousted from Government as a welcome present, not a statement of fact that Labour left the country broke and on it's knees as Dave would have us believe.

Shocking campaign form Labour all round and now they have self serving smarmy gits like Chuka Ummuna in the running as the next best thing since sliced bread for potential Labour voters preaching a message of "aspiration". Bollox to it!, I'm not buying into it.

 

[Buzzer]

I agree completely (I live with an immigrant too - sounds awful when I describe my girlfriend like that) and all we want is stability and fairness and any party that delivers an NHS that is effective and a system that provides affordable social housing that doesn't screw the tenants gets my vote. I'm a Tory in my head but far further to the left in my heart.

 

[Gwylan]

Housing really is a key issue that Labour have consistently failed to address, forget the aspiration bollox. Even fairly high earners with a decent joint income are now finding themselves trapped in the private rented sector, the very 'middle class' voters they're supposed to be reaching out to. The housing market is a mess with the result that the young generation without wealthy parents or an inheritance have a bleak future ahead where no amount of "aspiration" is likely to offer a better future without major policy change from future Governments, and anyone who's missed the property owning boat, often through no fault of their own, now that it's sailed is left high and dry and paying through the nose to fatten up the buy to let brigade. The Housing Benefit bill to the taxpayer alone should be something to set the alarm bells ringing.

Absolutely spot on., I agree, housing and NHS should be the number one priorities.

Totally agree. I was absolutely staggered about how little was said about housing - apart from some vague ideas about building more. As no party was advocating more social housing, it was hard to see how the government could do anything. Labour's plan for rent caps was a start but didn't really amount to a plan of action.

There's not just a concern about where our kids will live, there's also, as OTLW, points out, a massive housing beneft bill. I believe it's the second largest part of the welfare bill, after pensions, and as something like 70% of the people receiving housing benefit are in work, it's no use talking about the rise in employment. If Labour wanted to do something about the disgrace of working people needing a top-up from the government, I might start listening to it as a serious party again

 

[ROSM]

And being opportunistic here, housing policies aren something that can avoid the left and right labelling to a large degree. Whether you're Essex man, a disenfranchised white Anglo saxon male or a factory worker in the north east, we all need somewhere to live

 

[Questions]

It's all about many of the working class joining the middle classes.
Or more to the point, they think they have. No doubt Labour have tried to throw their net over a wider catch and it worked for a while, but maybe they just need to be a little more consistent like the Tories..............you know just look after their friends, the rich and anybody who has made a few bob. Austerity is fine when you drive a Jag.

 

[Chicken Run]

The quintessential "charity" Tory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-pxGH4eyLQ

Still talking nearly 24 hours later lol

 

[beorhthelm]

It's all about many of the working class joining the middle classes.

for 9 pages i've been trying to point out a nagging flaw in the original hypothesis, but couldn't put my finger on it. this is it. real class divisions faded away a long time ago.

 

[London Irish]

From that list housing particularly stands out for me on a personal level. Labour have done nothing to address the imbalance caused by the travesty of Thatcher buying working class votes with the selling off of Council houses.

Housing really is a key issue that Labour have consistently failed to address, forget the aspiration bollox. Even fairly high earners with a decent joint income are now finding themselves trapped in the private rented sector, the very 'middle class' voters they're supposed to be reaching out to. The housing market is a mess with the result that the young generation without wealthy parents or an inheritance have a bleak future ahead where no amount of "aspiration" is likely to offer a better future without major policy change from future Governments, and anyone who's missed the property owning boat, often through no fault of their own, now that it's sailed is left high and dry and paying through the nose to fatten up the buy to let brigade. The Housing Benefit bill to the taxpayer alone should be something to set the alarm bells ringing.

It's lazy to just bandy this "aspiration" word about without taking a wider view of society, peoples place in society, and the roles that need fulfilling for a healthy society to function effectively rather than one that sees us all trying to clamber over each other in a bid to reach higher up the greasy pole where "aspiration" is the watch word and those at the bottom of the pole are sneered at because they haven't shown enough "aspiration". There you go, aspiration used four times in one paragraph, just to try to catch up with the amount of times the bloody word will be used in this thread and the countless others about what a new vision for the Labour party should entail.

What the Blairities don't realise is the soap powder politics of "aspirational" bland sloganising won't work anymore. People gave the benefit of the doubt to that kind of careerist middle class politics 20 years ago but it got rumbled. We know this only too well in Brighton because we are in advance of the rest of the country in the Greens taking large swaths of former Labour supporters - and let's not forget that besides Caroline the Green defections were also crucial in failing to win Kemptown. The SNP have hammered Labour from the left and large parts of the north the protest vote against Labour middle class careerism has headed off to UKIP.

Nowadays it's Blairites who are the true dinosaurs - they want to recreate 1995 over again but they are too stupid to realise the country has moved on. People want real answers to real problems in the NHS, housing, pay, the shitty transport system, inequality, you name it. The bland careerists have nothing worthwhile to say about any of those issues except more spin and do nothing bolix.

 

[London Irish]

Still talking nearly 24 hours later lol

Yes, go and give 50p to a street sleeper, might make you feel better.

 

[Chicken Run]

Yes, go and give 50p to a street sleeper, might make you feel better.

Still talking, come on London Gibberish you can do better than that, oh and btw the value I got from giving money to someone less fortunate than I including the look on his face when I handed him a tenner was even better than knowing how your still in agony over last weeks GE HAHAHA

 

[Jim D]

It's all about many of the working class joining the middle classes.
Or more to the point, they think they have. No doubt Labour have tried to throw their net over a wider catch and it worked for a while, but maybe they just need to be a little more consistent like the Tories..............you know just look after their friends, the rich and anybody who has made a few bob. Austerity is fine when you drive a Jag.

Prescott? Haven't they taken that car off you yet? ps...thanks for helping with The Amex.

 

[London Irish]

Still talking, come on London Gibberish you can do better than that, oh and btw the value I got from giving money to someone less fortunate than I including the look on his face when I handed him a tenner was even better than knowing how your still in agony over last weeks GE HAHAHA

That patronising thing you got going on with "people less fortunate than yourself" is a bit sad and creepy in my book but that's your funeral.

But you are wrong about agony, the thing you find out pretty early when you oppose the elitism and unfairness of a society run for the benefit of the wealthy is that disappointments and setbacks will come along regularly; you learn to bounce back quick and I'm pretty convinced that Labour under Burnham will bounce back quickly and that the likes of Caroline and the Scots Nats will continue to show alternatives to the "crumbs from the rich man's table" politics you believe in.

 

[Chicken Run]

That patronising thing you got going on with "people less fortunate than yourself" is a bit sad and creepy in my book but that's your funeral.

But you are wrong about agony, the thing you find out pretty early when you oppose the elitism and unfairness of a society run for the benefit of the wealthy is that disappointments and setbacks will come along regularly; you learn to bounce back quick and I'm pretty convinced that Labour under Burnham will bounce back quickly and that the likes of Caroline and the Scots Nats will continue to show alternatives to the "crumbs from the rich man's table" politics you believe in.

Thanks for that x

 

[Machiavelli]

The thing is Buzzer, I personally don't necessarily want to get on the housing ladder, shall we say I don't "aspire" to home ownership. I remain on the Left wing with my number 11 shirt, was brought up in a council house and would be quite happy living in social housing now. Yet my parents personally, and their generation, sold us out when they bought our council house, and despite being married to an immigrant (certain sections of the media would have us believe that immigrants automatically get 'given' a council house) we have absolutely no chance of getting social housing because our "needs are being met" in the private sector, i.e with Housing Benefit top ups that are going straight into private landlords' pockets.

As you mention the NHS. I believe this was another major flaw with Labour's election campaign. No one really believe that even the Tories would dismantle the NHS completely, which is what Labour were implying with their "Save our NHS" message. And while we're at it, why did Labour allow Dave to get away with waving that silly little - there's no money left - letter around? It's a standard treasury in-joke letter left by every party ousted from Government as a welcome present, not a statement of fact that Labour left the country broke and on it's knees as Dave would have us believe.

Shocking campaign form Labour all round and now they have self serving smarmy gits like Chuka Ummuna in the running as the next best thing since sliced bread for potential Labour voters preaching a message of "aspiration". Bollox to it!, I'm not buying into it.

Can I join in with a whole page on a NSC political thread of harmony (it's page 9 of this thread for those that want to look it up). And this broadly relates to housing (the NHS is obvious, and has huge public support). For four decades now housing has got out of control in this country. This started off with Thatcher selling off council houses, but it's been exacerbated by the extension/leverage of financing housing and, even more so, by the failure to build sufficient houses to take account of an increasing population, and demographic shifts leaning towards more occupants.
The original Thatcher bribe is long gone now (despite that shameless attack on social housing during the campaign), and especially younger people are now well and truly cut out of this giant housing ponzi scheme. Instead there's more buy-to-let, and expensive (to tenants and the benefit system) rented property. It's going to take more than a decade to redress this situation, but it's one that should resonate and is the kind of long-term project that could see Labour coalesce around.

I'd also like to see them embrace PR and take the issue of climate change far more seriously.

 

[1066familyman]

Can I join in with a whole page on a NSC political thread of harmony (it's page 9 of this thread for those that want to look it up). And this broadly relates to housing (the NHS is obvious, and has huge public support). For four decades now housing has got out of control in this country. This started off with Thatcher selling off council houses, but it's been exacerbated by the extension/leverage of financing housing and, even more so, by the failure to build sufficient houses to take account of an increasing population, and demographic shifts leaning towards more occupants.
The original Thatcher bribe is long gone now (despite that shameless attack on social housing during the campaign), and especially younger people are now well and truly cut out of this giant housing ponzi scheme. Instead there's more buy-to-let, and expensive (to tenants and the benefit system) rented property. It's going to take more than a decade to redress this situation, but it's one that should resonate and is the kind of long-term project that could see Labour coalesce around.

I'd also like to see them embrace PR and take the issue of climate change far more seriously.

You make a good point about demographic shifts leaning towards more occupants. The break up of the extended family, and now even the break up of the nuclear family in the shape of divorce has led to more and more single households. This is music to the ears of the buy to let brigade as they buy up houses and divide them up into bedsits and flats and increase their profit margin still further. All this 'entrepreneurship' is of course encouraged in a society that views houses, not as places for people to live in and feel secure but, as investment opportunities for those with the money to invest. It almost becomes like a game of monopoly where those landing on the right squares collect more and more money from those without and get richer and richer whilst those without find their £200 as they pass go, i.e their full time wage, just isn't enough to keep them in the game without being bailed out in the form of Housing Benefit.

The Tory solution to this?... force Housing Associations to sell off more social housing! http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...r-affordable-homes-the-ifs-says-10200919.html Genius! Of course, the promise is that the policy will lead to the building of more social housing, but we've heard that old chestnut before haven't we. Yeah, cuts galore for the poorest in society and "Austerity" the watch word, but somehow a rabbit is going to be produced out of the magic hat and turn into thousands of new social houses. Oh goodie, I can't wait!

Still, we can trust Labour to oppose such a policy can't we?.....Oh http://labourlist.org/2015/04/balls...nly-if-matched-by-massive-housebuilding-plan/ Never mind Labour voters, don't despair, just crank up the Aspirationometer a notch or two and you'll be fine.