nicko31
Well-known member
Sadly they will be vindicated in full
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[News] Just Stop Oil
- Thread starter dazzer6666
- Start date
There is a big distance between righteous and outraged. I'm more mmmmmm..... in the middle. For the sorts who are outraged and think that JSO can do no wrong, I can imagine they are fuming at my callous right wing intransigence. Am I bothered? Er....no. Can I be persuaded to recant? No.
Oh, and I don't set the sentences. One can 'whatabout' sentences all night and all day. They are what they are. The finest legal minds struggle with sentencing frameworks.
Whatabout increasing sentences for GBH and rape? I'd be all in favour. Ten years per punch? Life for rape? Mmmmm..... if you wish. Free the JSO one? Mmmm.... not so fussed.
I made the comment a year or so ago that the York pitch invasion could have cost us our league position, and was roundly 'crikied', facepalmed and otherwise ostracized as if I had forgotten the lyrics of 'Fight fight fight for the Albion, till we win Division Three' while inadvertently referring to our glorious 1979 promotion winning manager as Malcolm Allison.
It doesn't take a statistician to work out that not every thought word and deed done in the name of saving the club was necessarily righteous, pure, selfless, restrained and effective.
The ‘draconian’ laws do not prevent the right of peaceful protest. However, the actions of JSO, XR and many other groups in recent years have developed a form of protest that causes massive disruption to thousands of people, costs the taxpayer (that’s ordinary citizens not the government) £millions and damages the economy which hurts everyone.
Peaceful protest remains a democratic right but it’s those that have abused that right who were responsible for the impetus for changes to the law and the general public support for it.
I don’t think that makes the JSO sentences unduly severe (but then I wasn’t party to the evidence that the judge was) but it equally doesn’t make it right how the last government got away with multiple law breaking or possible/probable law breaking that was never properly pursued or prosecuted.
Just hoping for something better going forward I guess
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
The League clubs had a vote to see whether we should be thrown out. Several clubs voted yes, including, iirc Leyton Orient.
Weststander
Well-known member
Barry Hearn really didn’t like us. I wonder if he hated our draw at Hereford?
Machiavelli
Well-known member
1, no, you don't set the sentences. The Tories did ...
2, ... and they really don't like democracy -- so they did all they could to crack down on what's absolutely central to democracy which is the right to assemble, associate and disagree with what elites are up to. These sentences are the sort you'd expect to see in Putin's Russia not to the self-styled 'cradle of democracy'
3, you want to increase sentencing across the board by the content of this response. That's what the Tories did, which has led to a huge prison population, zero to negligible rehabilitation, and a shortage of places in prisons -- all of which has prompted the incoming Justice Secretary to declare an emergency in the criminal justice system, and release prisoners early
What becomes concerning is that all these views cease to be a minority pursuit amongst Farage and his cronies, Braverman et al and becomes more widespread amongst the diminishing and socially narrowing electorate.
1. Agree. Albeit this doesn't mean a stopped clock is not right twice a day. I am disinclined to argue motive unless it is unavoidble.
2. No, I was mooting this as a solution to those who were suggesting that sentencing for rape and assault are too low by comparison
I am in favour of all the solutions that Labour have always advocated for dealing with prison overcrowding: crime prevention by education and the pursuit of a more civil society in particular.
However we are not dealing with career criminals here. This episode is not ignorant estate dwellers beating up other boys, vandalizing and occasionally raping and stabbing. These are middle class folk causing massive disruption to people going about their lawful business, including emergency workers, because they have a bee in their bonnet and think the solution is to bring back the horse and cart. Antidemocratic nobs who think they know better than the rest of us and can force us to do what they want. Not much different from Ronnie Lee and the ALF albeit, so far more passive aggressive than actually violent.
Finally the implication that we either support JSO or support Farage is silly. I keep saying that I am neither jubilant nor outraged at the sentencing. Maybe it is a bit high. But I don't really care. I can't see Labour doing too much to the law that delivered it any more than I can see them reintroducing secondary picketing, but who knows. If the do change the law so these goons just get a slap on the wrist, I may tut a bit but I won't really mind.
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
Like many others, you're not considering why the majority of people support the new laws.
JSO and ER essentially found a loophole in our current laws that allowed them to cause maximum disruption without being punished. They completely took the piss and forced HMG's hand to do something about it. Most people are of the opinion that you can't bring London to a standstill on a daily basis, and you can't close a major motorway for a week.
For those with a one track mind, it isn't a case of the evil Tories taking away people's liberties just for a laugh, although I'm sure some of you genuinely believe it is!
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You seem to be forgetting these people got draconian sentences for only discussing disruptive protesting .... not actually doing it. Also, no, peaceful protest does not remain a democratic right - you might want to look at the laws that the Tory kuntish government brought in to limit noise at a protect for example.
dsr-burnley
Well-known member
- Aug 15, 2014
- 2,625
That's not unusual. Conspiracy to commit a crime carries the same sentence as the people who turn up in person to commit it. The man who masterminds the bank robbery gets convicted along with the men who actually entered the bank.
As for limiting noise at protests - can a protest be noisy and peaceful at the same time?
Did they discuss and organise a crime that went on to be committed?That's not unusual. Conspiracy to commit a crime carries the same sentence as the people who turn up in person to commit it. The man who masterminds the bank robbery gets convicted along with the men who actually entered the bank.
As for limiting noise at protests - can a protest be noisy and peaceful at the same time?
- Oct 17, 2008
- 14,480
If someone plots a crime but is stopped by police from committing it, should they not be punished?
You’re missing my point.
I was asking if the crime they discussed ever went on to be attempted or committed by them or anyone else?
- Oct 17, 2008
- 14,480
Well, no, because they were arrested… am I missing something here?
- Oct 17, 2008
- 14,480
Yes. Criminal conspiracy.
Like, for example, if I plan on my own or with others to kill someone (using a MUCH more extreme example of the same prima facie situation), just because the hitman I plot with turns out to be an undercover policeman I don’t get to walk away free. I’ve intended to commit a crime, and was only stopped because of law enforcement.
In this case, they were convicted because of a conspiracy to knowingly commit a criminal act. Whether or not the act was actually attempted is irrelevant, because the Crown’s evidence proved they would’ve committed these crimes if they weren’t stopped by the police.
Their only defence in law would’ve been a “it was just a fantasy/roleplay” defence as recently seen in the Holly Willoughby kidnapping case. However, in this case they had meticulous plans with set times and dates and a clear, realistic objective.
They were dead to rights. The issue people are debating is the severity of the sentencing - not their innocence.