[News] Just Stop Oil

[Withdean South Stand]

This conversation seems to come back to an argument I had with an American regarding 9/11. My point was that if you KNEW the hijackers were going to take the planes, should you stop them? My argument was yes - of course you should, if you can prove they were going to hijack and crash the planes. His argument was adamantly NO - they hadn't committed a crime until the hijacked and crashed the planes. But that ignores the planning and the criminal conspiracy which was ongoing for months/years prior to the actual events.

Obviously, nothing the Just Stop Oil people were planning to do was on that scale but the point about conspiracy stands. They have been duly punished for the crimes they were fully intending to commit. And in my opinion they've lost the plot anyway - this country is not responsible for the situation the planet finds itself in, so we are not responsible for reversing it. It's beyond anything our country to do - not to say we shouldn't be as efficient as we can be, but we alone cannot reverse the damage being done every day.

 

[jcdenton08]

This conversation seems to come back to an argument I had with an American regarding 9/11. My point was that if you KNEW the hijackers were going to take the planes, should you stop them? My argument was yes - of course you should, if you can prove they were going to hijack and crash the planes. His argument was adamantly NO - they hadn't committed a crime until the hijacked and crashed the planes. But that ignores the planning and the criminal conspiracy which was ongoing for months/years prior to the actual events.

Obviously, nothing the Just Stop Oil people were planning to do was on that scale but the point about conspiracy stands. They have been duly punished for the crimes they were fully intending to commit. And in my opinion they've lost the plot anyway - this country is not responsible for the situation the planet finds itself in, so we are not responsible for reversing it. It's beyond anything our country to do - not to say we shouldn't be as efficient as we can be, but we alone cannot reverse the damage being done every day.

The other key thing to remember regarding international terrorism is the cases we don’t hear about. In my mind in this case there is no question this was a statement/deterrent conviction. They were bang guilty, and a custodial sentence was inevitable. Was the sentence excessive? We’ll see what the appeals court says and the public will have their opinion too.

But I can’t fathom, if I’m understanding my right honourable friend The Clamp and your American friend right, the idea that just because no crime had been actually committed then it’s fair game.

Again using an extreme example compared to wallies in JSO, but MI5, MI6, the CIA and police agencies have prevented hundreds of attacks which would’ve taken countless lives by acting on intelligence before a crime has been committed.

Normally I can see both sides of an argument but this one seems so obvious it feels almost like a gotcha that anyone could argue otherwise.

 

[The Clamp]

Yes. Criminal conspiracy.

Like, for example, if I plan on my own or with others to kill someone (using a MUCH more extreme example of the same prima facie situation), just because the hitman I plot with turns out to be an undercover policeman I don’t get to walk away free. I’ve intended to commit a crime, and was only stopped because of law enforcement.

In this case, they were convicted because of a conspiracy to knowingly commit a criminal act. Whether or not the act was actually attempted is irrelevant, because the Crown’s evidence proved they would’ve committed these crimes if they weren’t stopped by the police.

Their only defence in law would’ve been a “it was just a fantasy/roleplay” defence as recently seen in the Holly Willoughby kidnapping case. However, in this case they had meticulous plans with set times and dates and a clear, realistic objective.

They were dead to rights. The issue people are debating is the severity of the sentencing - not their innocence.

Thanks.

 

[beorhthelm]

This conversation seems to come back to an argument I had with an American regarding 9/11. My point was that if you KNEW the hijackers were going to take the planes, should you stop them? My argument was yes - of course you should, if you can prove they were going to hijack and crash the planes. His argument was adamantly NO - they hadn't committed a crime until the hijacked and crashed the planes. But that ignores the planning and the criminal conspiracy which was ongoing for months/years prior to the actual events.

seems an odd position from the land of shoot first, ask questions later. assume he was unaware or wouldnt accept that conspiracy is often a crime in itself.

 

[jcdenton08]

seems an odd position from the land of shoot first, ask questions later. assume he was unaware or wouldnt accept that conspiracy is often a crime in itself.

America is just like Britain though, widely divided opinion on everything from abortion to guns

 

[nicko31]

Like many others, you're not considering why the majority of people support the new laws.

Like I've said, these laws are popular until they come down on a group of people you support.

Remember that Sunak admitted a right-wing think tank helped the government write these draconian anti-protest laws. The very same think tank fuelled by fossil fuel money from the likes of Exxon Mobil.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Just Stop Oil activists get bail after plane sprayed at Stansted

The women are on bail and are set to appear at Chelmsford Crown Court on 15 August.

www.bbc.com

They broke into an airport using angle grinders and caused £50k worth of damage to airplanes.

BUT WHY ARE THEY PICKING ON US. PEACEFUL PROTEST, EVIL TORIES, DRACONIAN LAWS etc. etc.

 

[abc]

You seem to be forgetting these people got draconian sentences for only discussing disruptive protesting .... not actually doing it. Also, no, peaceful protest does not remain a democratic right - you might want to look at the laws that the Tory kuntish government brought in to limit noise at a protect for example.

Limiting noise at a peaceful protest - whatever next!?

 

[abc]

Like I've said, these laws are popular until they come down on a group of people you support.

Only if you then believe that a group of people you support have a democratic right to disrupt thousands of people's lives, cost the tax payer £millions etc. I suspect most people don't.

 

[abc]

America is just like Britain though, widely divided opinion on everything from abortion to guns

Do you think that really the case? I would have thought we are much more united on many (but obviously not all) big issues like abortion and gun control and i cant ever imagine Brits voting for a potential prime minister with convictions a la Trump

 

[jcdenton08]

Do you think that really the case? I would have thought we are much more united on many (but obviously not all) big issues like abortion and gun control and i cant ever imagine Brits voting for a potential prime minister with convictions a la Trump

Yes, I think so. Compare voters in New York to those in Tennessee. There is a huge divide

 

[nicko31]

You seem to be forgetting these people got draconian sentences for only discussing disruptive protesting .... not actually doing it. Also, no, peaceful protest does not remain a democratic right - you might want to look at the laws that the Tory kuntish government brought in to limit noise at a protect for example.

Putin would approve.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Do you think that really the case? I would have thought we are much more united on many (but obviously not all) big issues like abortion and gun control and i cant ever imagine Brits voting for a potential prime minister with convictions a la Trump

Some did in the last general election. Sunak was returned to Parliament.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

1, no, you don't set the sentences. The Tories did ...
2, ... and they really don't like democracy -- so they did all they could to crack down on what's absolutely central to democracy which is the right to assemble, associate and disagree with what elites are up to. These sentences are the sort you'd expect to see in Putin's Russia not to the self-styled 'cradle of democracy'
3, you want to increase sentencing across the board by the content of this response. That's what the Tories did, which has led to a huge prison population, zero to negligible rehabilitation, and a shortage of places in prisons -- all of which has prompted the incoming Justice Secretary to declare an emergency in the criminal justice system, and release prisoners early

What becomes concerning is that all these views cease to be a minority pursuit amongst Farage and his cronies, Braverman et al and becomes more widespread amongst the diminishing and socially narrowing electorate.

To add to my previous reply, my guess is that Starmer will roll back the tory rush to authoriarianism without fuss, in due course, and without anyone noticing. Just like he dealt with what was predicted to be a massive split in Labour after the 'get brexit done' election, with Momentum and Corbyn and Wrong Baily and chums agitating for revolution. They were all picked off one by one, every time they popped up with some inanity, like retweeting anti-Semitic tropes. Or just faded away when the found they had no traction. And people hardly noticed.

Fixing all the damage the last shower created over the last 10 years is a marathon not a sprint. I am pleased we are not seeing a socialist blood letting, with sharp knives waved feverishly at every bit of tory tomfoolery in an exultant frenzy. The country doesn't need anymore doctrinaire gesture politics.

And the absence of showboating, bluster, hubris and cant may help foster a more sober attitude at large to politics. GBNews may become even more of an arsehole club for alcoholic nonentities, going forward.

And then we may at some point.....exhale.

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

Yes. Criminal conspiracy.

Like, for example, if I plan on my own or with others to kill someone (using a MUCH more extreme example of the same prima facie situation), just because the hitman I plot with turns out to be an undercover policeman I don’t get to walk away free. I’ve intended to commit a crime, and was only stopped because of law enforcement.

In this case, they were convicted because of a conspiracy to knowingly commit a criminal act. Whether or not the act was actually attempted is irrelevant, because the Crown’s evidence proved they would’ve committed these crimes if they weren’t stopped by the police.

Their only defence in law would’ve been a “it was just a fantasy/roleplay” defence as recently seen in the Holly Willoughby kidnapping case. However, in this case they had meticulous plans with set times and dates and a clear, realistic objective.

They were dead to rights. The issue people are debating is the severity of the sentencing - not their innocence.

A very recent and real life example...

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This conversation seems to come back to an argument I had with an American regarding 9/11. My point was that if you KNEW the hijackers were going to take the planes, should you stop them? My argument was yes - of course you should, if you can prove they were going to hijack and crash the planes. His argument was adamantly NO - they hadn't committed a crime until the hijacked and crashed the planes. But that ignores the planning and the criminal conspiracy which was ongoing for months/years prior to the actual events.

Obviously, nothing the Just Stop Oil people were planning to do was on that scale but the point about conspiracy stands. They have been duly punished for the crimes they were fully intending to commit. And in my opinion they've lost the plot anyway - this country is not responsible for the situation the planet finds itself in, so we are not responsible for reversing it. It's beyond anything our country to do - not to say we shouldn't be as efficient as we can be, but we alone cannot reverse the damage being done every day.

This. Conspiracy all day long. Bosh.

And second point also correct. With India, China and Brazil (not to mention the US and the incoming Trump regime) all hell-bent on digging up, chopping down and burning anything they can lay their hands on, we would be far more useful working with our colleagues in the EU to help these nations wean themselves off self-harming practices.

(And with our independent nonaligned voice, now we have left the EU, we can.....er......something, something, something.)

JSO - absolute middle-class self indulgence, with added disruption and, in some cases, jeopardy for the rest of us.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Heathrow: Nine Just Stop Oil activists arrested at airport - BBC News

The activists are suspected of conspiring to interfere with a site of key national infrastructure.

www.bbc.com

One of them is going to end up getting shot or people killed if they start f***ing around with airports.

 

[worthingseagull123]

Heathrow: Nine Just Stop Oil activists arrested at airport - BBC News

The activists are suspected of conspiring to interfere with a site of key national infrastructure.

www.bbc.com

One of them is going to end up getting shot or people killed if they start f***ing around with airports.

I cannot understand their actions.

They must know their campaign to get the UK fosail fuel free by 2030 is hopeless.

Perhaps they are genuinely narcissists.

Perhaps secure units rather than prisons may help them?

 

[jcdenton08]

Heathrow: Nine Just Stop Oil activists arrested at airport - BBC News

The activists are suspected of conspiring to interfere with a site of key national infrastructure.

www.bbc.com

One of them is going to end up getting shot or people killed if they start f***ing around with airports.

Maybe this is in their minds and they aren’t as dumb as they seem. Many have shown they’re willing to do hard time for the cause, becoming a martyr is just a small step further. It’s a cult. I hope for no loss of life, especially if mentally unstable people are being used to further a partisan cause.

 

[dazzer6666]

Some did in the last general election. Sunak was returned to Parliament.

What’s he been convicted of ? (FPN for breaking Covid rules isn’t a conviction)