Junior Doctors

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

You may or may not be right, for all I know. I can only report as I have found. I do accept that if you take published data for gospel, then you (not necessarily you personally, I might add!) have to be rather naïve, but then again teeth-curling stories might also be the case for the NHS! It is afterall,only human nature to want to conceal your failings. I do not know enough to be able to judge with any degree of authority which system is better, but those who were reliant on Stafford Hospital may not now share your confidence in the NHS.

I think Stafford is the case which proves my point. The NHS has undergone huge soul searching after what happened there. It is precisely because the NHS does look critically at itself that the scandal there was uncovered. The Salpetiere in Paris and Charite in Berlin could learn a thing or two from our experience.

It boils down to the management style and the ability to self police. Nurses in Germany, for example, are hugely under skilled and subservient to Doctors...they do not complain or highlight poor practice, similarly France. I sat in a long meeting with a group of senior French ITU doctors who freely admit that patient deaths are not investigated or benchmarked against other centres, mistakes are dealt with "in private" and that malpractice is tolerated if it protects the organisational imperative. There is not anywhere near the same level of scrutiny as we have in the NHS.

Trust me.

 

[alfredmizen]

I think Stafford is the case which proves my point. The NHS has undergone huge soul searching after what happened there. It is precisely because the NHS does look critically at itself that the scandal there was uncovered. The Salpetiere in Paris and Charite in Berlin could learn a thing or two from our experience.

It boils down to the management style and the ability to self police. Nurses in Germany, for example, are hugely under skilled and subservient to Doctors...they do not complain or highlight poor practice, similarly France. I sat in a long meeting with a group of senior French ITU doctors who freely admit that patient deaths are not investigated or benchmarked against other centres, mistakes are dealt with "in private" and that malpractice is tolerated if it protects the organisational imperative. There is not anywhere near the same level of scrutiny as we have in the NHS.

Trust me.

How is the scandanavian model funded ? What could we learn from them ?

 

[Igzilla]

How is the scandanavian model funded ? What could we learn from them ?

We could learn a lot from their educational system too, but that's a different argument!

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Scandinavia has the highest contributory tax to health ratio in the world. Unfortunately you get what you pay for.

They also collaborate fantastically well across the Nordic countries. The autonomy given to their nurses is also a big factor. Incidentally, when I was at the Karolinska in Stockholm all of the Nurses and Doctors were full of huge respect for the NHS. The standard of UK research is seen as the best in the world...they appreciate the NHS more than we do. That's for sure.

 

[alfredmizen]

Scandinavia has the highest contributory tax to health ratio in the world. Unfortunately you get what you pay for.

They also collaborate fantastically well across the Nordic countries. The autonomy given to their nurses is also a big factor. Incidentally, when I was at the Karolinska in Stockholm all of the Nurses and Doctors were full of huge respect for the NHS. The standard of UK research is seen as the best in the world...they appreciate the NHS more than we do. That's for sure.

It's late on Friday night , I've got my kids and I'm not seeing my other half till tomorrow and you go and mention Scandinavian nurses.......

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

It's late on Friday night , I've got my kids and I'm not seeing my other half till tomorrow and you go and mention Scandinavian nurses.......

Oh brother. The month I spent deep diving into Scandinavian nursing practice will keep me warm no matter how long the cold night.

 

[Igzilla]

Oh brother. The month I spent deep diving into Scandinavian nursing practice will keep me warm no matter how long the cold night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0lrQdFmL9U

 

[dazzer6666]

Maybe slightly O/T, but my daughter is studying nursing - 4 year degree. Pays no tuition fees at all and gets an additional bursary that is not far off enough to cover accommodation and living costs. Pretty much guaranteed a job at the end of it. Scottish Uni, of course, 'different' funding rules.

 

[jackanada]

My sister lives in France and their system is infinitely better than ours , unfortunately ''free at the point of care'' has become a sticking point with politicians.

Even though there is some paying at the point of care in France they still spend more of tax revenue on healthcare than we do. Up until Dave wasted over 3 billion restructuring the NHS to make it less efficient it was universally considered the most cost effective health service in the world.
Not best. Most cost effective. Allegedly what Tories want, though their actions say they just want to make money for themselves and are happy for people to suffer and die so incredibly wealthy people can have further wealth beyond reason.

 

[Creaky]

Would that not be restrictive practice? Is it even legal to stop them leaving to work elsewhere? Maybe make them repay their training costs if they leave too early (otherwise known as a debt)? Many thousands of doctors join the NHS from all over the world, I wonder if the pay and conditions are something to do with it?

It seems to be a crazy situation where the NHS hires around 3,000 foreign doctors each year, (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/28/-sp-nhs-hires-3000-foreign-doctors-staff-shortage ), and at the same time the BMA receives around 5,000 requests for certificates of good standing, (http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/home/fi...he-uk-to-emigrate-abroad/20007366.fullarticle ), to enable them to emigrate!

As you say - "I wonder if the pay and conditions are something to do with it?"

 

[skipper734]

It seems to be a crazy situation where the NHS hires around 3,000 foreign doctors each year, (http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/jan/28/-sp-nhs-hires-3000-foreign-doctors-staff-shortage ), and at the same time the BMA receives around 5,000 requests for certificates of good standing, (http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/home/fi...he-uk-to-emigrate-abroad/20007366.fullarticle ), to enable them to emigrate!

As you say - "I wonder if the pay and conditions are something to do with it?"

Because they can't all become Consultants. They,as Registrars will apply for jobs as Consultants, especially in the sunny south where all and sundry want to live. There will always be a candidate better qualified, so they choose between say Grimsby or Melbourne. Which would you choose.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Even though there is some paying at the point of care in France they still spend more of tax revenue on healthcare than we do. Up until Dave wasted over 3 billion restructuring the NHS to make it less efficient it was universally considered the most cost effective health service in the world.
Not best. Most cost effective. Allegedly what Tories want, though their actions say they just want to make money for themselves and are happy for people to suffer and die so incredibly wealthy people can have further wealth beyond reason.

The NHS is an extremely complicated system which has world leading research and cutting edge treatment at one end and appalling basket cases like Mid Staffs at the other.
Last year I worked in the big London teaching hospitals and saw examples of healthcare that puts the rest of the world to shame. In the past few years I have spent long periods embedded in US, European and Asian hospitals. Whatever we think of the NHS I am telling you that, at its best, we have the finest, most cost effective system available anywhere outside the Nordics.

The veterans (VA) in the United States is by far and away the worst I've seen in any developed system. Anyone who looks to them as an example of how to treat it's less well off needs their bumps felt. The pay that medics receive in the UK is faaaar too much imo and is the fundamental issue we have. Also the Tory government, whatever they say, is putting in place a two tier system and hobbling the cash hungry, high intensity parts of the service.

I am sensible enough to realise that we cannot keep funding the NHS ad infinitum but the choice before us is clear. We either recognise that healthcare is a pivotal part of our national infrastructure and agree, as one, that we want to keep it adequately funded for all of our sakes. That means higher personal taxation obviously or, we don't want that, we keep our own grubby little pile of cash for ourselves, pay only for ourselves and fuck everyone else.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Yeah, she sounds like ''least political person I know''.

You're very good at MISSING THE POINT, then.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Perhaps this is what she should have said?

Firstly, if Mr Hunt wants to change the NHS, he could have gone about it better. Talking to people might help.

Secondly, would you be happy to have far worse working conditions and pay imposed so arbitrarily on you?

 

[Hampster Gull]

Junior Doctors - lets stick with the old ones

 

[GT49er]

Junior Doctors - lets stick with the old ones

Just until they die - or carry on after too?

 

[GT49er]

I am sensible enough to realise that we cannot keep funding the NHS ad infinitum but the choice before us is clear. We either recognise that healthcare is a pivotal part of our national infrastructure and agree, as one, that we want to keep it adequately funded for all of our sakes. That means higher personal taxation obviously or, we don't want that, we keep our own grubby little pile of cash for ourselves, pay only for ourselves and fuck everyone else.

Or making sure that the rich friends of the ruling classes actually pay their frickin' taxes (abolishing evasion and avoidance - one may be legal, but both equally morally reprehensible). And then setting HMRC up to catch them - giving them targets of tax collection, rather than 'staff efficiencies' (ie how many staff can they get away with paying for, even though there won't be enough to do the job).

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Or making sure that the rich friends of the ruling classes actually pay their frickin' taxes (abolishing evasion and avoidance - one may be legal, but both equally morally reprehensible). And then setting HMRC up to catch them - giving them targets of tax collection, rather than 'staff efficiencies' (ie how many staff can they get away with paying for, even though there won't be enough to do the job).

Well yes, obvs. Whether it's personal levy or corporate. We need a properly funded NHS and no government or opposition party has had the cahones to go to the electorate with that proposition.

The Liberals are the only ones who have publically stated that they would raise income tax by 1% over inflation as a Health premium. And they got a pants down spanking in the election.

 

[GT49er]

The Liberals are the only ones who have publically stated that they would raise income tax by 1% over inflation as a Health premium. And they got a pants down spanking in the election.

Hardly surprising, seeing as how they got into bed with the tories, thus destroying any credibility they ever had as a protest vote. Sorry, correction - just destroying any credibility - or integrity - they ever had.

 

[Pevenseagull]

in year one. 28k year two, and so on until about 70k after 9 years as a consultant.

yeah, because they all end up on £70K after a few years

it's not as if they're doing anything useful like marketing, or difficult like IT support.

some of the ***** even own cars