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Junior Doctors
- Thread starter bhadebenhams
- Start date
The protection is only for 3 years.
Once again, a government of the UK acts (or tries to) without considering the consequences - and without apparently having a clue about what the 'real world' is about. Seems to happen all too often these days. Too many politicians who've never had a 'proper' job.
Says it all really!!!
happypig
Staring at the rude boys
Look at the top of the page where it says "Home / Your workforce / Need to know / Junior doctors' contract offer / Junior doctors' pay calculator / Rotas"
studio150
Well-known member
And what time do unsociable hours start for the House of Commons and the House of Lords........yes way before 10pm so perhaps Mr Hunt wouldlike the same contract.
Doctors are not the loonie left or some other strike happy group but the Tories have got this issue so wrong Im surprised by the muted opposition from other parties
The most significant information (as opposed to dis-information) is that 99% (of a substantial proportion (76%) of those entitled to vote, a proportion that our beloved politicians can only dream of ever getting) disagree with this particular government policy, and that all but 1% of that 99% support a strike against it. That, in Westminster terms, is a gigantic whoosh.
If Mr. Hunt cannot recognise this, he is even more incompetent than may people already thought.
Expect the Daily Mail any day soon to announce that junior doctors are in fact a secret wing of ISIS, and their readers will believe it...................
Junior Doctors are THE ENEMY WITHIN and should be treated as such.
In other news, David Cameron's getting a new plane this week to take him to meetings.
#AllInItTogether
In other news, David Cameron's getting a new plane this week to take him to meetings.
#AllInItTogether
happypig
Staring at the rude boys
They are converting a tanker and when he's not using it, it will still be used as a tanker, so he'll turn up smelling of petrol
Is that tanker with a silent 'W'?
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,025
absolutly, so there is clearly no support. however there is clearly deliberate attempts to portray the change as universaly bad, for doctor and by implication for us. the rotas are being communicated (by Happypig's source) as if thats the future, on one response i saw as if its the current. the truth lies between, its a suggested future rota. one that few will be obliged to take up, and we dont see how this compares to present. the BMA is keen to tell us that weekends are already covered, yet say the changes will alter doctors work life balance - so somthing is missing in the information, those cant both be true, or distorted truths. what i see is also is alot of people wanting this to be bad, without looking up any of the details.
Boroseagull
Well-known member
Contrast the pay of junior doctors in the UK compared to a friend of mine who is a GP in Poland. She is head of practice based in a local hospital and her take home pay each month is 1400 euros, at today's rate £1000. Fortunately she is married to a professor of neurosurgery who works for both state and private sectors, however his income is no where near a consultant in the UK. Perhaps it explains why so many doctors from around the world wish to work in the NHS.
aolstudios
Well-known member
crucial information...
http://metro.co.uk/2015/11/19/bbc-a...-vagina-during-jeremy-hunt-interview-5513352/
http://metro.co.uk/2015/11/19/bbc-a...-vagina-during-jeremy-hunt-interview-5513352/
Perhaps this is what she should have said?
aolstudios
Well-known member
This, from the guy who saved Wilko Johnson's life after he was told his cancer was terminal...
Charlie Chan
12 hrs · Cheltenham ·
So Junior doctors vote to take industrial action. 75% turnout and 98% voting for strike action. There will have been few, if any, more decisive ballots.
Most of the consultants support the Juniors too (I do). Remember that the juniors of today will be the consultants of tomorrow, be that here in the UK or overseas.
Although most lay people will say that junior doctors should repay the cost of their training by service to the NHS, most newly qualified doctors will have very large student debts. 5 years at medical school in London might easily leave you with a debt of £120,000! 5 years of £9k per year tuition fees plus 5 years of accommodation, public transport, clothing (you can't go on the wards in jeans and trainers) and equipment. That's before they have had anything to eat. Medical courses have no let up, so there is no prospect of casual work in bars/restaurants to help pay the way. I don't see many other students being saddled with that sort of debt before they start earning.
When they qualify, this is their pay scale for a basic 40 hour week. Starting Basic pay of £22.636 pa.
Almost all of them are contracted to do up to 56 hours a week, much of it during unsocial hours at night or at weekends. Rotas are fixed and there is no choice about this. It is very hard to change rotas, due to the low number of doctors in UK hospitals. In return for the extra contracted hours, most juniors will get an extra 50-80% of their salary (called "banding", which is related to the proportion of unsocial hours). But doctors also have to pay for training course and exams, which can amount to several thousands a year.
Jeremy Hunt wants to change the definition of unsocial hours, so that evening and saturday work no longer counts as unsocial. This means that the "banding" can be reduced, so that doctors take home less money. Given the problematic staffing situation in UK hospitals, managers will then roster the doctors to work more unsocial hours for less pay.
So what you might say. It's just middle class fat cat doctors bleating about money. But these changes will mean that many juniors will be contracted to work longer hours (say from 48 to 56 hours, as hospitals will be able to do this without seeing the pay bill go up) with more hours at night time and at weekends. That means that doctors will get more tired, which will compromise patient safety.
That's the immediate change. But, perhaps more importantly, the changes on rosters will mean that the doctors will be less well trained. Doctors talk about the difference between training (i.e. when they are learning to do routine elective operations or seeing patients in a clinic) as opposed to service (i.e. when you are there just to see patients without any training component - such as night time etc). If doctors spend less time attending routine day time operating lists, then how do I train them to become competent independent surgeons?
Some might say, well why don't you just operate all through the night and at weekends? It's because patients don't do as well if the operation happens late at night, even if the consultant is there. The NCEPOD audit shows that there is a significantly increased mortality in patients operated on late at night. Hence, it's only life or death stuff after 11pm in most places. The reason for that is that humans just don't perform as well in the middle of the night - not even if you do shift work.
So consultants in the UK support their juniors because a) it is likely to make it less safe for patients, as doctors will be more tired b) training opportunities will be reduced so that the next generation of consultants will not be as experienced and c) why should they have their pay cut when they all work bloody hard and get no thanks for it (form the powers that be).
I hope that makes sense, but I have vested interest in supporting them, as they will be the ones looking after me when I get ill in my dotage.
Charlie Chan
12 hrs · Cheltenham ·
So Junior doctors vote to take industrial action. 75% turnout and 98% voting for strike action. There will have been few, if any, more decisive ballots.
Most of the consultants support the Juniors too (I do). Remember that the juniors of today will be the consultants of tomorrow, be that here in the UK or overseas.
Although most lay people will say that junior doctors should repay the cost of their training by service to the NHS, most newly qualified doctors will have very large student debts. 5 years at medical school in London might easily leave you with a debt of £120,000! 5 years of £9k per year tuition fees plus 5 years of accommodation, public transport, clothing (you can't go on the wards in jeans and trainers) and equipment. That's before they have had anything to eat. Medical courses have no let up, so there is no prospect of casual work in bars/restaurants to help pay the way. I don't see many other students being saddled with that sort of debt before they start earning.
When they qualify, this is their pay scale for a basic 40 hour week. Starting Basic pay of £22.636 pa.
Almost all of them are contracted to do up to 56 hours a week, much of it during unsocial hours at night or at weekends. Rotas are fixed and there is no choice about this. It is very hard to change rotas, due to the low number of doctors in UK hospitals. In return for the extra contracted hours, most juniors will get an extra 50-80% of their salary (called "banding", which is related to the proportion of unsocial hours). But doctors also have to pay for training course and exams, which can amount to several thousands a year.
Jeremy Hunt wants to change the definition of unsocial hours, so that evening and saturday work no longer counts as unsocial. This means that the "banding" can be reduced, so that doctors take home less money. Given the problematic staffing situation in UK hospitals, managers will then roster the doctors to work more unsocial hours for less pay.
So what you might say. It's just middle class fat cat doctors bleating about money. But these changes will mean that many juniors will be contracted to work longer hours (say from 48 to 56 hours, as hospitals will be able to do this without seeing the pay bill go up) with more hours at night time and at weekends. That means that doctors will get more tired, which will compromise patient safety.
That's the immediate change. But, perhaps more importantly, the changes on rosters will mean that the doctors will be less well trained. Doctors talk about the difference between training (i.e. when they are learning to do routine elective operations or seeing patients in a clinic) as opposed to service (i.e. when you are there just to see patients without any training component - such as night time etc). If doctors spend less time attending routine day time operating lists, then how do I train them to become competent independent surgeons?
Some might say, well why don't you just operate all through the night and at weekends? It's because patients don't do as well if the operation happens late at night, even if the consultant is there. The NCEPOD audit shows that there is a significantly increased mortality in patients operated on late at night. Hence, it's only life or death stuff after 11pm in most places. The reason for that is that humans just don't perform as well in the middle of the night - not even if you do shift work.
So consultants in the UK support their juniors because a) it is likely to make it less safe for patients, as doctors will be more tired b) training opportunities will be reduced so that the next generation of consultants will not be as experienced and c) why should they have their pay cut when they all work bloody hard and get no thanks for it (form the powers that be).
I hope that makes sense, but I have vested interest in supporting them, as they will be the ones looking after me when I get ill in my dotage.
Although quite obviously the thread starter is fishing 
..... I actually agree with the aims of the changes but not the method. It's utterly bizarre and stupid that the NHS doesn't work the same on weekends than it does during the week. This is our HEALTH for god sake. My late grandmother was admitted to hospital with what ended up being cancer. The duty doctor wanted to discharge her on a Friday night but couldn't do it until Monday because the hospital pharmacy didn't have some one that could dispense the correct drugs for her after 5pm on the Friday. So money was wasted and a bed was blocked for over two days for the sake of getting medical professionals to work over a weekend. In fact, I think all NHS services should be available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
The Junior Doctors I do have sympathies for, the change of contract looks crap. That said, work in a hotel in unsocial hours and you get no extra money !
..... I actually agree with the aims of the changes but not the method. It's utterly bizarre and stupid that the NHS doesn't work the same on weekends than it does during the week. This is our HEALTH for god sake. My late grandmother was admitted to hospital with what ended up being cancer. The duty doctor wanted to discharge her on a Friday night but couldn't do it until Monday because the hospital pharmacy didn't have some one that could dispense the correct drugs for her after 5pm on the Friday. So money was wasted and a bed was blocked for over two days for the sake of getting medical professionals to work over a weekend. In fact, I think all NHS services should be available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.The Junior Doctors I do have sympathies for, the change of contract looks crap. That said, work in a hotel in unsocial hours and you get no extra money !
I would say, if you don't want to work so called un-social hours except with extra pay, don't become a doctor.
There are huge numbers of young people who are turned down for medical school each year, so there is hardly a problem there.
On the whole, doctors get well paid , have good security of employment, good prospects, a good pension and are respected members of the community.
The NHS in its present form is unsustainable and things have to change.No Government has had the balls to grasp the nettle and tell the public the truth about what really needs to be done as they will face hysteria and be booted into the long grass for eternity.
The BMA are a pretty powerful and militant bunch, who play on the fact that the general public will generally take on the default position of backing the goodies(the doctors) and booing the baddies( Government of the day). It is never that straightforward.
I comment as one who comes from a family of GP's, surgeons and nurses.
There are huge numbers of young people who are turned down for medical school each year, so there is hardly a problem there.
On the whole, doctors get well paid , have good security of employment, good prospects, a good pension and are respected members of the community.
The NHS in its present form is unsustainable and things have to change.No Government has had the balls to grasp the nettle and tell the public the truth about what really needs to be done as they will face hysteria and be booted into the long grass for eternity.
The BMA are a pretty powerful and militant bunch, who play on the fact that the general public will generally take on the default position of backing the goodies(the doctors) and booing the baddies( Government of the day). It is never that straightforward.
I comment as one who comes from a family of GP's, surgeons and nurses.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,025
this is my problem, clearly this piece is trying to steer an opinion but is being dishonest. none of the example rotas have above 45 hours average, though some weeks as much as 66 hours. but the article contradicts itself, noting some are already are contracted 56 hours. so how changes to 56 hours longer? and if hours and rotas change it doesn't change the hospitals staff budget, as they have to have the same cover - one doctor get paid instead of another. what we have is edge cases being used to paint an inaccurate picture.
my trust in the doctors to be against the change is eroded by the BMA and others clearly trying to make political capital out of what is supposed to be an improvement to service.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,025
!!!! No support! Delusion on a Jeremy Hunt scale...........
no support for the changes, hence "absolutely" in agreement with your point.
aolstudios
Well-known member
It's not a media piece, it's a facebook post by a senior Consultant who happens to be a friend of mine.
Btw, my daughter's boyfriend is a junior Doc he regularly works 60+ hours with barely a break. It's ****ing crazy & it endangers patients every day