[Football] Joey Barton

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Agree on the role of the pundit but not that their experience is the only place to garner insight.

I'd rather have someone like Jonathan Wilson, who's entire career has been devoted to analysing and dissecting football, acting as a pundit than someone like Michael Owen. I can guarantee Wilson has more to say about tactics than Steve McManaman.

Agree. Also I really like listening to Statman Dave (on radio 5 - I don't have enough time to listen to his podcasts). There are some odd old commentators on the circuit (names escape me) now, who are keeping up the tradition of dullness pioneered by the likes of Clive Tyldsley and Peter Drury. There is one in particular who witters, and "he's not the first player from Estonia to grace the ranks of West ham, and there was a match, you remember Chris, way back when, after 40 minutes they were two nil up. His brother played for Portsmouth if I remember rightly. Or was it Swindon?" and so on.

Also: "And here we are at the Amex, or the American Express Community Stadium, to give it its full name. The average crowd here is something Brighton could only have dreamt of, back when they played at The Goldstone ground. They've come a long way, from the likes of Peter Ward and Alan Mullery, and many of their supporters would never have imagined . . . . oh, look at that. One nil to Burnley. What a strike."

 

[BBassic]

I’ve watched and been around football for about 4 decades. I wouldn’t for a second think I have an iota of the knowledge of a Premier League manager, but would happily ask them questions about coaching/tactics etc for hours. I’d also find it more interesting to learn from someone who’s been to the very top and played for Real Madrid and Liverpool than an author, no matter how much they’ve studied it. It’s like Michael Cox the other day in the Athletic criticising RDZ’s approach at Chelsea, taking no account of the circumstances. All sounds great and dead easy in theory.

I’m sure Jonathan Wilson with his track record is way ahead of the wealth of self-appointed ‘experts’ now doing the rounds. I also think he’d be very interesting in a piece talking broadly about tactics across different clubs and eras. Talking on a specific, single match having to consider tactics as they unfold on the fly… not for me.

Yeah all good points.

I think I'm just sick of tedious ex-pros. Punditry for me should be done by anyone with anything interesting and knowledgeable to say. Which thankfully would rule out that pillock who was on commentary when we played Forest.

 

[nickbrighton]

As others have said, there are good and bad commentators of all genders. The fact that Barton says ALL women should not comment on Mens football is plainly ludicrous

The bigger and more pertinent debate should be not on what gender the pundits, hosts, commentators are, but whether or not they are any good, and what the actual job should be.

The there are a few things that really irritate me on the vast majority of football programmimg. Firstly the now standard practice of having non nuetral commentators and pundits (Neville, Carragher, Birtles etc) working on matches and discussing their old teams. There is very little balanced view, a prime recent example being Birtles co comentary on the Forest v BHA match. It was like watching Forest TV. Everything was seen from the Forest point of view, and the comments that it wasn't a penalty because our player wasnt near the ball was just laughable. Secondly the growing trend of not comentating on the actual match , but on endless stats about playing on wednesdays , or gossip about player x or y's next club, or hairstyles etc. Another is the shouting of players names whenever they get in the opposition box and shoot.

Listen to Johnny Cantor and Warren on radio, you actually get an idea of whats going on whilst still being able to enjoy a bit of banter between them.

There should be a happy medium between simple pass by pass inflectionless comentary and the inane drivel spouted by the likes oh Sky, BT, and the rest and it certainly isnt based on the gender of the people doing it

 

[trueblue]

Agree. Also I really like listening to Statman Dave (on radio 5 - I don't have enough time to listen to his podcasts). There are some odd old commentators on the circuit (names escape me) now, who are keeping up the tradition of dullness pioneered by the likes of Clive Tyldsley and Peter Drury. There is one in particular who witters, and "he's not the first player from Estonia to grace the ranks of West ham, and there was a match, you remember Chris, way back when, after 40 minutes they were two nil up. His brother played for Portsmouth if I remember rightly. Or was it Swindon?" and so on.

Also: "And here we are at the Amex, or the American Express Community Stadium, to give it its full name. The average crowd here is something Brighton could only have dreamt of, back when they played at The Goldstone ground. They've come a long way, from the likes of Peter Ward and Alan Mullery, and many of their supporters would never have imagined . . . . oh, look at that. One nil to Burnley. What a strike."

All subjective isn’t it? Personally, I think good stats offer some decent insight but a lot of people use them now as something to say in lieu of a genuine feel for football. Not the dedicated stats guys but lots of reporters.

I find it fairly amazing though to see Drury and Tyldesley used as examples of poor commentators. Many people would consider Peter Drury’s ability to add value to the pictures - and the dying art of shutting up at appropriate moments - to be unparalleled. Funny old business

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Yeah all good points.

I think I'm just sick of tedious ex-pros. Punditry for me should be done by anyone with anything interesting and knowledgeable to say. Which thankfully would rule out that pillock who was on commentary when we played Forest.

All I want from a tv co-commentator is someone to provide a foil for the main person. The best are people who spot things going on with the play, and highlight tactics, changes to formation, tweaks etc and crucially can communicate this clearly and concisely. I have some friends who are very good at this so you do not need to have played the game..you just need to have an inquizative mind, a good understanding, be alert, and have a good command of language. Like you, I do not need a tired old ex-pro to tell me what it was like taking a penalty in a crucial game 20 years ago.

It was Gary Birtles for the Forest game...he was shocking and did not even know the laws of the game when he was discussing the penalty......'ball was going away from him' WTF? There were other odd comments as well.

Now Joey. If you think women commentating on the game is so bad just dip in for comedy value......like I do with your trip to the art gallery when you were in your 'football philospher' period "that looks like a man, dressed as a woman'

 

[worthingweird]

Piers Morgan interview was interesting via YouTube.... checkout the comments.

 

[worthingweird]

Your not a baby boomer by any chance are you ?

I don't do all that bollocks...

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I’ve watched and been around football for about 4 decades. I wouldn’t for a second think I have an iota of the knowledge of a Premier League manager, but would happily ask them questions about coaching/tactics etc for hours. I’d also find it more fascinatin to learn from someone who’s been to the very top and played for Real Madrid and Liverpool than an author, no matter how much they’ve studied it. It’s like Michael Cox the other day in the Athletic criticising RDZ’s approach at Chelsea, taking no account of the circumstances. All sounds great and it’s dead easy in theory.

I’m sure Jonathan Wilson with his track record is way ahead of the wealth of self-appointed ‘experts’ now doing the rounds. I also think he’d be very interesting in a piece talking broadly about tactics across different clubs and eras. Talking on a specific, single match having to consider tactics as they unfold on the fly and the fact 11 different human beings are involved and need to be managed… wouldn’t be that interested in his assessment.

On Jonathan Wilson specifically, while I don't doubt he knows a lot about the game, I've never rated his articles about modern football.
There was a period a few years ago when I noticed he'd write basically the same article before every Arsenal Tottenham game, going on about how the "balance of power" was shifting between the two clubs. Invariably the team he claimed was on the up would go on to lose the game.
He also seems to have been infected by the Ronay-itis which afflicts so much of The Guardian's sports writing, where a lack of genuine insight is covered up by a load of waffle and wordplay that reads like a Jeremy Clarkson car review circa 2009.

Anyway, in general I think there's room in post match analysis (where there'll typically be about 3 people plus the presenter) for ONE ex-pro, ONE ex-manager, and ONE expert who hasn't necessarily played the game at the top level who can all bounce off one another and provide different perspectives.

 

[Acker79]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-rise-and-rise-of-managers-who-never-played-gl0wlxfrl (paywall)

Increasingly seeing managers who have never played at a high level. If you can manage successfully without having played the game, who says you can't analyses a game without having played? I think the 'never played the game' is used for two reasons - shut down any criticisms or comments someone doesn't like, and or as convenient cover to hide prejudices.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Agree. Also I really like listening to Statman Dave (on radio 5 - I don't have enough time to listen to his podcasts). There are some odd old commentators on the circuit (names escape me) now, who are keeping up the tradition of dullness pioneered by the likes of Clive Tyldsley and Peter Drury. There is one in particular who witters, and "he's not the first player from Estonia to grace the ranks of West ham, and there was a match, you remember Chris, way back when, after 40 minutes they were two nil up. His brother played for Portsmouth if I remember rightly. Or was it Swindon?" and so on.

Also: "And here we are at the Amex, or the American Express Community Stadium, to give it its full name. The average crowd here is something Brighton could only have dreamt of, back when they played at The Goldstone ground. They've come a long way, from the likes of Peter Ward and Alan Mullery, and many of their supporters would never have imagined . . . . oh, look at that. One nil to Burnley. What a strike."

has to be Ian Darke

Another is the shouting of players names whenever they get in the opposition box and shoot.

This is infuriating. They've all noted the way Martin Tyler's "Agueroooooooooooooo" moment became iconic - he's lived off it since - and they are all trying to capture their equivalent moment in time.

Ignoring that it became iconic because of the very special context of the moment, rather than because an old man shouted over it. The likes of Adam Summerton don't seem to get that screaming "Mulllliiiiiiiin!" when Wrexham clinch a National League win over Notts County, isn't actually in any way equivalent.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

and ONE expert who hasn't necessarily played the game at the top level who can all bounce off one another and provide different perspectives.

You only have to once watch the Champions League Goals Show (on TNT / BT), with team that previously did the European Football Show, to understand that there is honestly ZERO value added by having 'played the game'.

James Richardson (anchor), Rafi Honigstein (German football writer), Julien Lauren (French footballer writer and broadcaster) and James Horncastle (Hull-born football writer and broadcaster, specialising in Italian football) provide a level of insight, history and WIT a couple of stratospheres above most ex-players.

Occasionally one of the above will be unavailable and TNT drop in Don Hutchinson, Owen Hargreaves or on one lamentable recent week, Jermaine Jenas - and they end up really standing out (and not in a good way).

 

[Is it PotG?]

As others have said, I could listen to Hayes all day.

Carney however I'm not so sure.

 

[Stato]

Top bombing from Bianca Westwood. Written with such vitriol that she hardly stopped to create new paragraphs. Good on her.

 

[trueblue]

You only have to once watch the Champions League Goals Show (on TNT / BT), with team that previously did the European Football Show, to understand that there is honestly ZERO value added by having 'played the game'.

James Richardson (anchor), Rafi Honigstein (German football writer), Julien Lauren (French footballer writer and broadcaster) and James Horncastle (Hull-born football writer and broadcaster, specialising in Italian football) provide a level of insight, history and WIT a couple of stratospheres above most ex-players.

Occasionally one of the above will be unavailable and TNT drop in Don Hutchinson, Owen Hargreaves or on one lamentable recent week, Jermaine Jenas - and they end up really standing out (and not in a good way).

Agree that with that show, with it's broad European remit, they're interesting as they know the leagues. It's a reflective highlights show though. Different specifically to co-commentary where the ideal is credible tactical analysis from someone who's experienced that scenario for real. I strongly disagree that there is zero value to having played the game - it just seems that way because the general standard of punditry has been allowed to become so poor. Back in the days when you had managers of the calibre of Bobby Robson and Terry Venables telling you what ought to be happening to sort a team out, did anyone care what a journalist thought?

 

[JBizzle]

All subjective isn’t it? Personally, I think good stats offer some decent insight but a lot of people use them now as something to say in lieu of a genuine feel for football. Not the dedicated stats guys but lots of reporters.

I find it fairly amazing though to see Drury and Tyldesley used as examples of poor commentators. Many people would consider Peter Drury’s ability to add value to the pictures - and the dying art of shutting up at appropriate moments - to be unparalleled. Funny old business

I always liked Johnny Cantor's approach that stats should be used where appropriate to enhance your understanding of the spectacle. It's useful to know a team's form, goal scoring record etc etc but there are some who just use nonsense stats for the sake of using stats. Does anyone care that since 2002 Liverpool have only won 3 games that kicked off at 7.30 on a Tuesday when 4 of their starting 11's have surnames beginning with "A"?*

On Drury and Tyldesley, my personal view is that I cannot stand them. Endless grandstanding trying to force a "they think it's all over moment". Alhough done with love, the below from Squires is one of my personal favourite takes:

Link if the pic if a bit too blurry.

David Squires on … what is football, if not for dreaming?!

Our cartoonist looks ahead to a big week in Europe … for Peter Drury

www.theguardian.com

*Stat may or may not be made up

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Top bombing from Bianca Westwood. Written with such vitriol that she hardly stopped to create new paragraphs. Good on her.

over to you Joey

I have this mental image of Barton slowly following each sentence with his finger, mouthing the words, and pausing occasionally when there's a big word.

 

[Deadly Danson]

Piers Morgan interview was interesting via YouTube.... checkout the comments.

It's a huge surprise to see one tosser who bangs on about "woke" being interviewed by another tosser who bangs on about "woke". Both utterly lamentable human beings. So predictable that Barton ended up on there. Next you'll be telling me he's got a podcast launching........oh.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

Joey Barton is a bit of a tosser, yes. However, I do find myself kind of agreeing somewhat, (without his extreme sexist undertone), as I get a bit irritated with this agenda currently in the mens game of having women on the panel, being added to the sports schedule of mens football, just because they are of the opposite sex and it fits the current narrative.

That space should be for an ex pro, well respected of course, or someone connected to the mens game, who has experienced it first hand. If that is a women, than great, but more often than not, it isn't, and naturally, would usually be a man.

I love the growth of the women's game, very tempted to go and find out what it's like soon.

The mens game is the mens game and now that the women's game is growing, the ex-pros and those connected with women's football, should be encouraged to be pundits etc on the women's game and again, if that is a man, then fine. But as it's still quite raw, then I would say use only women to promote it.

Overall, it's not a huge issue for me, but the whole identity politics behind it does my head in and as some of you know on here, I'm very much centrist in my views, before I get accused of gammon/sexist behaviour!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

All subjective isn’t it? Personally, I think good stats offer some decent insight but a lot of people use them now as something to say in lieu of a genuine feel for football. Not the dedicated stats guys but lots of reporters.

I find it fairly amazing though to see Drury and Tyldesley used as examples of poor commentators. Many people would consider Peter Drury’s ability to add value to the pictures - and the dying art of shutting up at appropriate moments - to be unparalleled. Funny old business

Perhaps I was harsh. Dull rather than poor. As I may have said, apart from a couple of standout nobs (McManaman) I'm not bothered really by any of them, and find it useful to have the player names identified. That said, for me, Alan Green brought a certain magnificence to the art of commentary (even when he complained about games being boring) that made me listen and enjoy the added value, something that none of the rest have done (not that I'm bothered by the dull ones). I also do like Jonathan Pearce.

We have strayed a long way from Joey Barton's ludicrous man-spaff, now, though

 

[keaton]

You only have to once watch the Champions League Goals Show (on TNT / BT), with team that previously did the European Football Show, to understand that there is honestly ZERO value added by having 'played the game'.

James Richardson (anchor), Rafi Honigstein (German football writer), Julien Lauren (French footballer writer and broadcaster) and James Horncastle (Hull-born football writer and broadcaster, specialising in Italian football) provide a level of insight, history and WIT a couple of stratospheres above most ex-players.

Occasionally one of the above will be unavailable and TNT drop in Don Hutchinson, Owen Hargreaves or on one lamentable recent week, Jermaine Jenas - and they end up really standing out (and not in a good way).

They do the Totally Football European Show Podcast every Tuesday as well btw