Jeremy Hunt-v-Junior Doctors.

[Herr Tubthumper]

My father was a GP, my uncle a Consultant Cardio-Thoracic surgeon, my aunt a doctor and my mother an SRN.
I have been surrounded by medics ever since I can remember, but just cannot agree with the actions of the BMA and the doctors actions.

I think you need your bumps examined, ask a family member.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I really do hope you are joking

I'm not sure if you're familiar with his posts but he's always joking; you should see the stuff he writes about the EU....pure comedy.

 

[drew]

This is why we need an economy that is weighted more in favour of Private than public.

The more private companies you have, paying it's staff from it's own earnings and paying more tax into the system itself in terms of corporation taxes and also from it's staffs employee paid taxes then there will be a higher amount in the Government pot to be able to spend on public services and potentially begin able to pay a much higher rate to the staff there.

All the time the country has a split around 50 / 50 between private and public, he staff in the public sector have to be paid for through the money raised by taxes (they do pay some back themselves from their earnings) but then everything else has to be funded by the remaining taxes raised from the private sector tax burden / public borrowing

The problem is, there is this sentiment held in this country in this country that private = greed = evil and only public can / does = good

The Government needs a much higher income from the private sector than it gets now (and especially under Labour as they tend to inflate the size of the public sector) to make it (NHS, etc) truly affordable and sustainable, but as seen in this thread multiple times by multiple posters, that the Tories are only making policies to help their rich mates get richer and are evil........ and not to actually try to increase private funding into the state by reducing the over reliance of the public sector on our economy

Ideally you need to grow the existing private sector and hope to get to around 80 to 90% Private / 10 - 20% public as a whole in our economy, this helps pay for the public sector which may also then be able to grow and wages for people or just numbers working in areas like health but also teachers, police, etc can grow too as the budget grows too

However tax the private sector too much, or fail to offer deals like tax breaks to companies that bring investors into the UK (we compete in an international market) then this area will not grow and will notb able to pay enough to sustain the public sector without cuts, or heavy public borrowing, etc....

How are you measuring the Private sector against the Public sector? In Sept 2015, there were 5.349m employed in the Public sector and 25.953m in the Private sector according to the Office of National Statistics.

 

[glasfryn]

I'm not sure if you're familiar with his posts but he's always joking; you should see the stuff he writes about the EU....pure comedy.

see now if I had gone on the internet and self diagnosed severe headache "take paracetamol" and went to bed for a week or two and woke up one morning blind.
Junior doctors are worth their weight in gold face to face diagnosis is the only way and if I do have GCA as that little girl who suspected thats what it might be has probably saved my sight.
not being able to watch the player highlights would be unbearable.
saint or angel call her what you like but we need her and her likes otherwise the NHS will crumble .................or is that what this despicable government actually want

 

[drew]

No, not if you are a doctor. If you want to be a doctor, please first realise that this is not a 9 to 5 occupation and you will be expected to work rotas. If you are unwilling to do this, you should have chosen another career.
Hunt's offer is more than fair and this is now all about money. The BMA have admitted as much .Blimey, read the offer and you will realise the doctors have been made a good offer.The lack of willingness to negotiate is from the medics side and they are heavily relying on 'Doctors good, politicians bad ' to gain public support. Good lord, many would give an awful lot to have an offer like that!

Do you actually read or understand what others have written. Your post is drivel doesn't address my quote at all so I'm not clear why you bothered including it! Where on earth did I or anyone else suggest doctors wanted to stop working weekends?

As for the headline offer, that is to compensate for when they lose money due to the change in unsocial hours. As many have said, it is supposed to be pretty much cost neutral.

 

[El Presidente]

My father was a GP, my uncle a Consultant Cardio-Thoracic surgeon, my aunt a doctor and my mother an SRN.
I have been surrounded by medics ever since I can remember, but just cannot agree with the actions of the BMA and the doctors actions.

That's fair enough. You shouldn't be judged by your relatives having a medical background.

If you want to take the side of the man who wrote a paper calling for the dismantlement of the NHS that's your prerogative.

 

[El Presidente]

How are you measuring the Private sector against the Public sector? In Sept 2015, there were 5.349m employed in the Public sector and 25.953m in the Private sector according to the Office of National Statistics.

He's measuring it using the Jeremy Hunt interpretation of statistics, such as Jezza used when over claiming £19,000 in expenses, and concluding that increased deaths at weekends were due to JDs.

 

[Creaky]

The petition calling on Parliament to consider a vote of no confidence in JH has exceeded a quarter of a million entries, well over the 100,000 needed for Parliament to consider a debate.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/121152

 

[beorhthelm]

They could save some cash and free up resources and space by replacing some Doctors with an internet based diagnostic service.

this is already a service you can obtain. the next logical step, computer aided diagnosis, is also in development and at prototype stage. within this decade it will be live across the world, not sure if we'll accept it here in the UK though, because people will assume its only to "profit private companies". the role of doctors and nurses is likely to change a great deal in the next decade as medical IT and AI systems evolve.

 

[BLOCK F]

Do you actually read or understand what others have written. Your post is drivel doesn't address my quote at all so I'm not clear why you bothered including it! Where on earth did I or anyone else suggest doctors wanted to stop working weekends?

As for the headline offer, that is to compensate for when they lose money due to the change in unsocial hours. As many have said, it is supposed to be pretty much cost neutral.

Drew, calm down and stop foaming at the mouth.
I just do not know how you can say my post is drivel.
I have not assumed that you suggest that doctors wanted to stop working weekends. What I have said is, if they wanted a career that didn't involve working hard, including hours that are not necessarily 9 to 5, they should have chosen an alternative path.

 

[BLOCK F]

That's fair enough. You shouldn't be judged by your relatives having a medical background.

If you want to take the side of the man who wrote a paper calling for the dismantlement of the NHS that's your prerogative.

Thank you, Oh Mighty One.
I read about his paper in today's Sunday Times.
By the way, certain elements of the BMA hierarchy are highly political and no doubt have their own agenda concerning the Government.

 

[BLOCK F]

I think you need your bumps examined, ask a family member.

Surprisingly, not everyone who doesn't side with the medics requires this sort of attention, Tubs.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I really do hope you are joking

About 95%

I'm not sure if you're familiar with his posts but he's always joking; you should see the stuff he writes about the EU....pure comedy.

Thanks HT I appreciate such a compliment from the master of mirth. Always enjoy our exchanges going back and forth for no apparent reason .. We're a bit like the chuckle brothers

this is already a service you can obtain. the next logical step, computer aided diagnosis, is also in development and at prototype stage. within this decade it will be live across the world, not sure if we'll accept it here in the UK though, because people will assume its only to "profit private companies". the role of doctors and nurses is likely to change a great deal in the next decade as medical IT and AI systems evolve.

Looking forward to this exciting sector of medical Science developing further and as you say bringing many beneficial changes in the coming decades. (All resisted by the medical establishment no doubt!)

 

[El Presidente]

I have not assumed that you suggest that doctors wanted to stop working weekends. What I have said is, if they wanted a career that didn't involve working hard, including hours that are not necessarily 9 to 5, they should have chosen an alternative path.

I haven't seen a single doctor say they want to work a 9-5 though.

Currently they can work a 91 hour hour week under the existing rules as JD's, and they do it with pride and professionalism.

The vast majority of doctors are from middle class backgrounds, are not motivated by money particularly (they lose five years pay through their time at medical school and have large amounts of student debt).

To me the argument put forward by Hunt that the BMA has been infiltrated by militants wanting to stir up trouble and the JD's are too thick to see through the union lies doesn't wash.

The doctors are simply too intelligent to fall for it.........IMO. You have a different opinion of them that's all.

 

[drew]

Drew, calm down and stop foaming at the mouth.
I just do not know how you can say my post is drivel.
I have not assumed that you suggest that doctors wanted to stop working weekends. What I have said is, if they wanted a career that didn't involve working hard, including hours that are not necessarily 9 to 5, they should have chosen an alternative path.

Lets' make it easy for you then. Where have the doctors said they want to stop working weekends? They know the profession is required to work weekends and they know they will work long hard hours so I don't quite fathom your last sentence above.

 

[BLOCK F]

I haven't seen a single doctor say they want to work a 9-5 though.

Currently they can work a 91 hour hour week under the existing rules as JD's, and they do it with pride and professionalism.

The vast majority of doctors are from middle class backgrounds, are not motivated by money particularly (they lose five years pay through their time at medical school and have large amounts of student debt).

To me the argument put forward by Hunt that the BMA has been infiltrated by militants wanting to stir up trouble and the JD's are too thick to see through the union lies doesn't wash.

The doctors are simply too intelligent to fall for it.........IMO. You have a different opinion of them that's all.

El P. There has been quite a bit in the press about the militant tendency of some of the leading lights in the BMA and not necessarily in the 'trashy press'. They do have form and are a very powerful trade union, who have often taken a stand against any kind of change. Doctors are intelligent, but I do feel that they are, to a certain extent, being led on by the BMA.
Yes, the majority of medics are from middle -class backgrounds and money is certainly not the main driver for their choice of career.However, as it has been pointed out, the final sticking point in this dispute is apparently over the dosh for week-end working. Sounds like it has at least something to do with money and isn't all about patient safety as the BMA has previously claimed.
By the way, I was offered a place to study medicine at St.Mary's Hospital Paddington, many moons ago. Suffice to say, I didn't go into the profession and anyway, I am now too old to man the picket lines!

 

[beorhthelm]

To me the argument put forward by Hunt that the BMA has been infiltrated by militants wanting to stir up trouble and the JD's are too thick to see through the union lies doesn't wash.

yet on the picket lines we see placards of trite slogans "save the NHS", "not for sale", "protect our Doctors". infiltration by militants makes it sound far more dramatic than it is, but they certainly look like making points with a political motive beyond the issues in the dispute. i dont understand why the junior doctors are that upset over the issue of whether they get double time or time and half at the weekend night shift, and regular pay for Saturday, when the overall pay remains the same. they are not, as far as i can tell, demanding to work fewer unsocial hours, so the matter of pay seems misguided. the way the contract has been presented has been poor, shirley they can put that aside and focus on the content of the deal (which includes reduced hours and a bunch of other improvments the doctors have asked for)

 

[El Presidente]

yet on the picket lines we see placards of trite slogans "save the NHS", "not for sale", "protect our Doctors". infiltration by militants makes it sound far more dramatic than it is, but they certainly look like making points with a political motive beyond the issues in the dispute. i dont understand why the junior doctors are that upset over the issue of whether they get double time or time and half at the weekend night shift, and regular pay for Saturday, when the overall pay remains the same. they are not, as far as i can tell, demanding to work fewer unsocial hours, so the matter of pay seems misguided. the way the contract has been presented has been poor, shirley they can put that aside and focus on the content of the deal (which includes reduced hours and a bunch of other improvments the doctors have asked for)

Many of the placard holders on the picket line are the usual eejits from Socialist Worker and their cronies. To me they don't represent the views of the BMA rank and file membership.

The fact that more senior doctors and their professional bodies have sided with the JD's in relation to this dispute suggests that there may be merit to the doctor's claims.

 

[El Presidente]

By the way, I was offered a place to study medicine at St.Mary's Hospital Paddington, many moons ago. Suffice to say, I didn't go into the profession and anyway, I am now too old to man the picket lines!

Just as well you didn't old chap, otherwise you may have ended up a COMMIE.

 

[BLOCK F]

Just as well you didn't old chap, otherwise you may have ended up a COMMIE.

Ha-ha!
Well, my old man isn't a commie and he doesn't approve of the strike; however he does share one or two views put forward by the other Jezza...............Corbyn, that is.
There is no accounting for old medics, they can be very stubborn old goats.