Jeremy Hunt-v-Junior Doctors.

[Indurain's Lungs]

so there's no junior GPs and no junior doctors in specialism that are office hours?

1 year ad a gp Registrar before completing training. Very, very few juniors that are "office hours" only. I can't think of any - even dermatology registrars do weekends on call.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

So employees in the public sector have had a contract imposed on them.

Its a big deal, in private sector you don't have a choice. They get a 13% payrise and keeping a final salary pension, are we serious are getting rid of deficit or what?

No there isn't a 13.5% pay rise!

As everybody I'd saying this us cost neutral now and money saving down the line (once senior trainees finish training and pay protection ends).

13.5% increase in basic and replacement of additional hours part of the salary (a cut of 30-40%) with an alternative system.

 

[nicko31]

No there isn't a 13.5% pay rise!

As everybody I'd saying this us cost neutral now and money saving down the line (once senior trainees finish training and pay protection ends).

13.5% increase in basic and replacement of additional hours part of the salary (a cut of 30-40%) with an alternative system.

What are we the public not being told?

The maximum number of hours that can be worked in one week would be reduced from 91 to 72.
The maximum number of consecutive nights will be reduced from 7 to 4
The maximum number of consecutive long days will be reduced from 7 to 5
No doctor will ever be rostered on consecutive weekends
Additional pay to those working evenings from 5pm, nights from 9pm to 7am and all day on Sunday
Plain time hours will be extended to 7am to 5pm on Saturdays
Those working one in four or more Saturdays will receive a "pay premium" of 30%
A new guardian role in every NHS trust - who will have the authority to impose fines for breaches of agreed working hours

 

[Whosh51]

Most of these junior doctors will have cost us the tax payers a small fortune to train, they have every opportunity to earn fantastic pay in the future. Stop grumbling an get on with the job you're paid to do. The NHS has become a political football and as we all know if you continually criticise its performance it will become disillusioned with itself.

 

[trueblue]

Most of these junior doctors will have cost us the tax payers a small fortune to train, they have every opportunity to earn fantastic pay in the future. Stop grumbling an get on with the job you're paid to do. The NHS has become a political football and as we all know if you continually criticise its performance it will become disillusioned with itself.

Yeah, of course, because they don't rack up any debts of their own while they're studying for years do they, or make any sacrifices when they're working their nuts off at all hours under pressure that most could never handle? Not to mention the sacrifice that they tend to be extremely intelligent individuals who, if they were money-motivated, could choose a much easier way to make a fortune. Society needs doctors. Society needs to pay for doctors - so they can continue to treat anyone and everyone without question - even those, like you, who think doctors have got an easy life and seem to resent them being properly rewarded for their considerable skill. Incidentally, what price would you put on saving the life of a member of your family? £30k a year sound reasonable?

 

[trueblue]

yes, the vast majority do. and i presume you've never heard of mutuals and not-for-profit organisations? such as Bupa for example.

So you think BUPA train their own doctors? And if you have an operation in a private hospital, where do you think you'll end up it it goes wrong?

 

[Leekbrookgull]

So you think BUPA train their own doctors? And if you have an operation in a private hospital, where do you think you'll end up it it goes wrong?

Add to that do BUPA 'do' A and E ? Course they don't they cherry pick.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Although i have no actually gripe with medics working in the private sector,but i would like to see some sort of fee paid into the Nhs for their services.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

Yeah, of course, because they don't rack up any debts of their own while they're studying for years do they, or make any sacrifices when they're working their nuts off at all hours under pressure that most could never handle? Not to mention the sacrifice that they tend to be extremely intelligent individuals who, if they were money-motivated, could choose a much easier way to make a fortune. Society needs doctors. Society needs to pay for doctors - so they can continue to treat anyone and everyone without question - even those, like you, who think doctors have got an easy life and seem to resent them being properly rewarded for their considerable skill. Incidentally, what price would you put on saving the life of a member of your family? £30k a year sound reasonable?

This is why we need an economy that is weighted more in favour of Private than public.

The more private companies you have, paying it's staff from it's own earnings and paying more tax into the system itself in terms of corporation taxes and also from it's staffs employee paid taxes then there will be a higher amount in the Government pot to be able to spend on public services and potentially begin able to pay a much higher rate to the staff there.

All the time the country has a split around 50 / 50 between private and public, he staff in the public sector have to be paid for through the money raised by taxes (they do pay some back themselves from their earnings) but then everything else has to be funded by the remaining taxes raised from the private sector tax burden / public borrowing

The problem is, there is this sentiment held in this country in this country that private = greed = evil and only public can / does = good

The Government needs a much higher income from the private sector than it gets now (and especially under Labour as they tend to inflate the size of the public sector) to make it (NHS, etc) truly affordable and sustainable, but as seen in this thread multiple times by multiple posters, that the Tories are only making policies to help their rich mates get richer and are evil........ and not to actually try to increase private funding into the state by reducing the over reliance of the public sector on our economy

Ideally you need to grow the existing private sector and hope to get to around 80 to 90% Private / 10 - 20% public as a whole in our economy, this helps pay for the public sector which may also then be able to grow and wages for people or just numbers working in areas like health but also teachers, police, etc can grow too as the budget grows too

However tax the private sector too much, or fail to offer deals like tax breaks to companies that bring investors into the UK (we compete in an international market) then this area will not grow and will notb able to pay enough to sustain the public sector without cuts, or heavy public borrowing, etc....

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Most of these junior doctors will have cost us the tax payers a small fortune to train

You have cost us a small fortune as well. Can we have our money back?

 

[trueblue]

This is why we need an economy that is weighted more in favour of Private than public.

The more private companies you have, paying it's staff from it's own earnings and paying more tax into the system itself in terms of corporation taxes and also from it's staffs employee paid taxes then there will be a higher amount in the Government pot to be able to spend on public services and potentially begin able to pay a much higher rate to the staff there.

All the time the country has a split around 50 / 50 between private and public, he staff in the public sector have to be paid for through the money raised by taxes (they do pay some back themselves from their earnings) but then everything else has to be funded by the remaining taxes raised from the private sector tax burden / public borrowing

The problem is, there is this sentiment held in this country in this country that private = greed = evil and only public can / does = good

The Government needs a much higher income from the private sector than it gets now (and especially under Labour as they tend to inflate the size of the public sector) to make it (NHS, etc) truly affordable and sustainable, but as seen in this thread multiple times by multiple posters, that the Tories are only making policies to help their rich mates get richer and are evil........ and not to actually try to increase private funding into the state by reducing the over reliance of the public sector on our economy

Ideally you need to grow the existing private sector and hope to get to around 80 to 90% Private / 10 - 20% public as a whole in our economy, this helps pay for the public sector which may also then be able to grow and wages for people or just numbers working in areas like health but also teachers, police, etc can grow too as the budget grows too

However tax the private sector too much, or fail to offer deals like tax breaks to companies that bring investors into the UK (we compete in an international market) then this area will not grow and will notb able to pay enough to sustain the public sector without cuts, or heavy public borrowing, etc....

Which Government that wants to massively increase the private sector has wanted to also improve the public sector rather than cut it to the bone? None in my lifetime. Maybe if they're so concerned about private companies thriving so we can all have a better NHS, they should make big companies pay their taxes rather than agree cosy deals that equate to 3% a year. Just a thought. That would have paid for a few Doctors.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

and if J/H wants 7/day working where is the budget for the back office ?

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

What are we the public not being told?

The maximum number of hours that can be worked in one week would be reduced from 91 to 72.
The maximum number of consecutive nights will be reduced from 7 to 4
The maximum number of consecutive long days will be reduced from 7 to 5
No doctor will ever be rostered on consecutive weekends
Additional pay to those working evenings from 5pm, nights from 9pm to 7am and all day on Sunday
Plain time hours will be extended to 7am to 5pm on Saturdays
Those working one in four or more Saturdays will receive a "pay premium" of 30%
A new guardian role in every NHS trust - who will have the authority to impose fines for breaches of agreed working hours

That's all true. And are definite progress so there is no debate over those points.

What the public aren't told is that any premiums, pay rises or uplifts are just shuffling money around. There is no increase in wage budget immediately but will lead to cuts progressively over the next few years.

We are actually against the 1 in 4 Saturday premium as this will reduce weekend Staffing - all the doctors who currently work 1 in 2 or 1 in 3 weekends will be switched to 1 in 4.1 weekends to save money.

 

[BLOCK F]

Isn't it the case that they actually want the existing unsocial hours recognized. Currently I think standard hours are 7am to 7pm Monday to Friday but Hunt wants to change that to 7am to 10pm Mon to Sat. Do you think working 9pm on a Saturday is not unsocial?

No, not if you are a doctor. If you want to be a doctor, please first realise that this is not a 9 to 5 occupation and you will be expected to work rotas. If you are unwilling to do this, you should have chosen another career.
Hunt's offer is more than fair and this is now all about money. The BMA have admitted as much .Blimey, read the offer and you will realise the doctors have been made a good offer.The lack of willingness to negotiate is from the medics side and they are heavily relying on 'Doctors good, politicians bad ' to gain public support. Good lord, many would give an awful lot to have an offer like that!

 

[BLOCK F]

Actually they are not - they are willing to scrap some of the 11% increase in basic to allow those that work Saturdays to be paid more. Hunt is quite clearly a HUNT with a capital C.

So it is plainly about the money,not patient safety then as the medics claim?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

many would give an awful lot to have an offer like that!

True. But then there's many good reasons why many of us are not doctors. They deserve better, and I hope they get it.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

21st Century Healthcare

Getting away from the all Doctors are saints, Nurses are angels, here's my wallet theme perhaps time to think outside of the box.

They could save some cash and free up resources and space by replacing some Doctors with an internet based diagnostic service.

Save on the travelling, immediate appointments, reduces bed blocking, less likely to spread infectious diseases, no need for translation services and possibly just as accurate in diagnosis.

Obviously some diagnosis still requires the personal touch, prostate examinations for instance .. but a generic Doctor character could appear on screen to ooze sympathy and concern if that's your bag.

Considering the excellent record of Government/public sector IT related projects this must be the way forward.

 

[TheJasperCo]

Could the junior doctors not challenge the legality of the reasoning behind the new contracts, by calling for a judicial review? I can see both sides of the argument, I think the fact that I count a lot of medics among my friends is swaying my support in favour of them...although I dare say the BMA is over-politicising this issue - using patients as pawns in the middle of it all.

 

[BLOCK F]

True. But then there's many good reasons why many of us are not doctors. They deserve better, and I hope they get it.

My father was a GP, my uncle a Consultant Cardio-Thoracic surgeon, my aunt a doctor and my mother an SRN.
I have been surrounded by medics ever since I can remember, but just cannot agree with the actions of the BMA and the doctors actions.

 

[glasfryn]

Getting away from the all Doctors are saints, Nurses are angels, here's my wallet theme perhaps time to think outside of the box.

They could save some cash and free up resources and space by replacing some Doctors with an internet based diagnostic service.

Save on the travelling, immediate appointments, reduces bed blocking, less likely to spread infectious diseases, no need for translation services and possibly just as accurate in diagnosis.

Obviously some diagnosis still requires the personal touch, prostate examinations for instance .. but a generic Doctor character could appear on screen to ooze sympathy and concern if that's your bag.

Considering the excellent record of Government/public sector IT related projects this must be the way forward.

I really do hope you are joking