Jeremy Corbyn.

[Kevlar]

interestingly on Neswnight now the old right wing splitter (SDP) David Owen said on some issues
(nhs) he is to the left of the Labour Party now.Similar to Roy Hattersley the old right candidate against
Tony Benn in the deputy leadership contest in 80's whose later commentary we regularly to the left
of new labour.Corbyn stands against cuts to tax credits the system set up under Blair.
MY point is the centre is now so far to the right there is no point labour fighting for this centre.
Across Europe many old centre left parties have disappeared up the neoliberal economic paradigm
and become irrelevant .Keynes once the go to economist of centre right as well as centre left in the
successful period of the post war settlement would now be a deficit denying extremist.
The fact that pursuing government sector surpluses will force private sector deficits on net
importing countries like the UK creating fiscal drag -money leaving the private sector and
inevitable recession will make anti austerity politics increasingly popular.

 

[Beach Hut]

It may do but at least I'll have someone to vote for.

Oh come on, we will be back to the dark ages of Derek Hatton and Militant at this rate, still an amusing side show

 

[alfredmizen]

Spot on. In 1972 Lord Whitelaw, then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, had a group of republican leaders, including Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, flown to London for secret talks in Chelsea. There were repeated contacts with PIRA and Loyalist terrorists throughout The Troubles. Anyone who thinks the GFA would have been possible otherwise is in fantasy land.

And just as a flag to the usual right-wingers who take this as "approval" of terrorists. On 03 December 1990 PIRA murdered the uncle of one of my god-children. I still support the British government having met with them and negotiated the GFA.

Ive tried , but I cant find a single post on this thread that is against the GFA or negotiations with terrorists to bring about peace in Northeren Ireland, what i can see is my own post that attacks Corbyn for publicly throwing his support behind the IRA AND their tactics, so I can only conclude that youre being disingenuous and using deflection tactics to mask your inability/unwillingness to admit that Corbyn offered support to terrorists who were engaged in a campaign against HIS OWN COUNTRY AND TROOPS, do you REALLY think this is a man fit to lead this country , and by extension the very same armed forces he so enthusiastically betrayed by supporting those trying to kill them on a regular basis ( as a flag they also tried to kill me personally on dec 14th 1983) , in 1987 Corbyn held a minutes silence for the 8 PIRA terrorists killed by the SAS at Loughall whilst engaged in an attack on the RUC station there, are you willing to condemn this ?

 

[alfredmizen]

Well put. Interesting to hear the opinion of someone actually affected by the IRA as opposed to the usual frothy mouthed Little Englanders.

yeah, really close to home that , i'd bet he'd never even met the bloke,he was from Maghera in Northern Ireland. I take it i'm included in the cabal of ' frothy mouthed little englanders' ? Well I was only 18 when i had to provide the cordon for a soldier who was basically incinerated by a car bomb in crossmaglen in south armagh , his clothes had melted into his body and every inch of exposed skin looked like a beefburger, he had no ears or eyelids and his skin was so hot they couldnt get a drip into him, the locals all came out singing 'another one bites the dust' and the local catholoic priest walked past ignoring the wounded soldier , who (probably mercifully) died 2 weeks later, i'll never forget that, i was also patrol in the same place when the IRA tried to detonate a radio controlled IED to kill me and the other 12 members of my patrol, fortunately i was carrying the electronic counter measures that blocked the signal for a 200 metre radius , however if you knelt down or took cover this was reduced to 100m, so whilst the rest of my patrol attempted to burrow themselves into the tarmac, i had to stand there like a target , all the while with someone pressing a button on an IED within 200m of me trying to kill me,THAT is 'actually affected' by the IRA , not knowing someone whose uncle was killed, and i have to read platitudes to vermin like Corbyn , who held a minutes silence for the 8 provos killed by the SAS at loughall , who invited adams to westminster weeks after the brighton bomb, are you seriously saying this man is fit to lead this country, and by extension the armed forces of this country ? Really ? after so enthusiastically backing the people who were trying to kill them ? I fvcking despair if you do.

 

[sydney]

British govt's have a track record of neglecting their armed forces.......and worse. i had a school mate , 2 actually who went in the paras and did time in N.I .......one of them had a paving slab dropped on his head from the top of a car park , the other was shot in both knees at the age of 19......both given medical discharges , one killed himself the other one lost the plot and ended up in jail........very sad. cannon fodder springs to mind. some of us are aware of the plight of soldiers past and present mate.

 

[alfredmizen]

British govt's have a track record of neglecting their armed forces.......and worse. i had a school mate , 2 actually who went in the paras and did time in N.I .......one of them had a paving slab dropped on his head from the top of a car park , the other was shot in both knees at the age of 19......both given medical discharges , one killed himself the other one lost the plot and ended up in jail........very sad. cannon fodder springs to mind. some of us are aware of the plight of soldiers past and present mate.

yes they do, but actively supporting their enemies ? Jesus wept there are people on here who have read what I've put and still support him, it makes me want to vomit.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

yeah, really close to home that , i'd bet he'd never even met the bloke,he was from Maghera in Northern Ireland. I take it i'm included in the cabal of ' frothy mouthed little englanders' ? Well I was only 18 when i had to provide the cordon for a soldier who was basically incinerated by a car bomb in crossmaglen in south armagh , his clothes had melted into his body and every inch of exposed skin looked like a beefburger, he had no ears or eyelids and his skin was so hot they couldnt get a drip into him, the locals all came out singing 'another one bites the dust' and the local catholoic priest walked past ignoring the wounded soldier , who (probably mercifully) died 2 weeks later, i'll never forget that, i was also patrol in the same place when the IRA tried to detonate a radio controlled IED to kill me and the other 12 members of my patrol, fortunately i was carrying the electronic counter measures that blocked the signal for a 200 metre radius , however if you knelt down or took cover this was reduced to 100m, so whilst the rest of my patrol attempted to burrow themselves into the tarmac, i had to stand there like a target , all the while with someone pressing a button on an IED within 200m of me trying to kill me,THAT is 'actually affected' by the IRA , not knowing someone whose uncle was killed, and i have to read platitudes to vermin like Corbyn , who held a minutes silence for the 8 provos killed by the SAS at loughall , who invited adams to westminster weeks after the brighton bomb, are you seriously saying this man is fit to lead this country, and by extension the armed forces of this country ? Really ? after so enthusiastically backing the people who were trying to kill them ? I fvcking despair if you do.

You are correctly explaining why Corbyn is a c unt. I agree with you (and I'm apparently a lefty). Fortunately he won't become labour leader, as today's polls say he is not labour member's top tit in the election. I have been smacking people at work today abou this, the young ignorati who think protest means valour. Since I'm known here as an iconoclast, the blood drained from their faces. Very amusing.

All the best, and hats off to you.

 

[Worthingite]

The Labour Party suffers from the same mind set that I came across in many companies back in the days when I ran Profit Improvement Seminars.

We've got a great product that we believe in, how can we persuade people to buy it?

Wrong question.

The right question is, what product do our customers want?

Followed by How can we provide this?

We had a general Election where the majority - albeit a small majority - voted to the right of the Labour party.

How do the Labour Party react to this? Logic says they need to move a bit to the right from where they were to be closer to what the electorate has said they want.

Instead some people want them to move more to the left - further away from what the majority of the elctorate said they wanted.

There's a technical term for this. It's called moving the target closer to the arrow.

It also leads to unelectability.

Politics is NOT about forcing your ideals onto others. That's dictatorship

Actually, politics can be, and often is, just like this. Just not winning politics.

To win, to get power so you can change the world, you have to give people what they want, not what you think they should have.

I'd disagree with your point in bold. There was a large amount of apathy this time round from the populace, purely on the basis that it was a case of both parties being much of a muchness, and rather than voting for the less shit option, stayed at home. Perhaps if there was a party that actually had the courage in its convictions they would have come out and voted. Instead we have two parties of beige. Perhaps it is time to have something more polarising?

 

[Vegas Seagull]

Overflowing 400+ meeting in Bristol last night, went down a storm

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

yeah, really close to home that , i'd bet he'd never even met the bloke,he was from Maghera in Northern Ireland. I take it i'm included in the cabal of ' frothy mouthed little englanders' ? Well I was only 18 when i had to provide the cordon for a soldier who was basically incinerated by a car bomb in crossmaglen in south armagh , his clothes had melted into his body and every inch of exposed skin looked like a beefburger, he had no ears or eyelids and his skin was so hot they couldnt get a drip into him, the locals all came out singing 'another one bites the dust' and the local catholoic priest walked past ignoring the wounded soldier , who (probably mercifully) died 2 weeks later, i'll never forget that, i was also patrol in the same place when the IRA tried to detonate a radio controlled IED to kill me and the other 12 members of my patrol, fortunately i was carrying the electronic counter measures that blocked the signal for a 200 metre radius , however if you knelt down or took cover this was reduced to 100m, so whilst the rest of my patrol attempted to burrow themselves into the tarmac, i had to stand there like a target , all the while with someone pressing a button on an IED within 200m of me trying to kill me,THAT is 'actually affected' by the IRA , not knowing someone whose uncle was killed, and i have to read platitudes to vermin like Corbyn , who held a minutes silence for the 8 provos killed by the SAS at loughall , who invited adams to westminster weeks after the brighton bomb, are you seriously saying this man is fit to lead this country, and by extension the armed forces of this country ? Really ? after so enthusiastically backing the people who were trying to kill them ? I fvcking despair if you do.

As I happens I do not include you. I'm very aware of your time in NI; I made a crass comment about it many years ago and got banned for it remember. A comment I regretted and apologised for.

 

[cunning fergus]

See if you can post on here for a WHOLE DAY without mentioning Nazis.

OK, I will give that a go, albeit as this thread surely demonstrates the subject arose in relation to the creation of the NHS, and was of merit to the ongoing discussion.

This is the nub, if it is without merit then I am more than happy to take a volley.

Otherwise your sentiment is like a form of censorship, and we know what kind of people advocate the suppression of views on that basis...........

Have I failed already?

 

[cunning fergus]

It will be somewhere between B (best economy in Europe) and W (World Champions). I'll file your post under T for Tedious backward thinking.

Sure, I will try and stop being so beastly.........

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wveW9Tw2JKE

 

[cunning fergus]

And after a few years of Nationalised Railways 85% will want them privatised again! That's railways for yer.

Re-nationalising the railways, is frankly a great idea, popular with the public, BUT not possible unless we take another political step that would endow the British Government with the power to do it.......

That is notwithstanding the Labour Party reclaiming "common ownership" by the workers in its clause IV shamefully removed by Blair.

If this is a Corbyn policy I will look forward to him parking Labours tanks on UKIP's lawn by advocating we exit the EU.

 

[attila]

The current Labour debate should be as much about press ownership and right wing media bias as about Jeremy Corbyn's candidacy. Because if the Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Express and Telegraph suddenly adopted a rabidly left wing stance instead of a rabidly right wing one, I reckon Jeremy would lead Labour to a landslide victory at the next election. And this is NOT saying 'people are too stupid to make up their own minds'. Opinion-changing propaganda has been a political weapon since the invention of the printing press, and these days it is ridiculously one-sided. I think it is disingenuous of the Right to downplay the role of the media: if people are bombarded day in, day out with scare stories and propaganda many - not all, but enough to change an election result - will believe it. That is not 'freedom of the press', is not democratic, and indeed is the very opposite of democracy. And this poison spreads into the broadcast media too. Every time BBC News do a round up of the papers, they should preface it with the statement 'Now here's what three tax-dodging billionaires want you to think.'

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

I'd disagree with your point in bold. There was a large amount of apathy this time round from the populace, purely on the basis that it was a case of both parties being much of a muchness, and rather than voting for the less shit option, stayed at home. Perhaps if there was a party that actually had the courage in its convictions they would have come out and voted. Instead we have two parties of beige. Perhaps it is time to have something more polarising?

Voter turnout was at its highest since 1997.

 

[alfredmizen]

As I happens I do not include you. I'm very aware of your time in NI; I made a crass comment about it many years ago and got banned for it remember. A comment I regretted and apologised for.

Fair enough HT, but you havent answered my question about corbyn, in light of his conduct, do you consider him fit to lead not only the labour party, but the country, and by extension the armed forces ?

 

[Simster]

Fair enough HT, but you havent answered my question about corbyn, in light of his conduct, do you consider him fit to lead not only the labour party, but the country, and by extension the armed forces ?

If what you're saying can be taken at face value, it's an absolute no brainer. The only people likely to disagree are the sort of repugnant ungrateful twats that Rudyard Kipling wrote "Tommy" for the benefit of.

 

[alfredmizen]

If what you're saying can be taken at face value, it's an absolute no brainer. The only people likely to disagree are the sort of repugnant ungrateful twats that Rudyard Kipling wrote "Tommy" for the benefit of.

You'll have to take my word for my experiences in south armagh,as for corbyn observing a minutes silence for the provos killed by the SAS at Loughall here are some sources:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7d242bcc-3126-11e5-8873-775ba7c2ea3d.html#axzz3gnOxDKfU

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2015/07/20/news/corbyn-not-envisaged-in-labour-shadow-cabinets-197713/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...Adams-and-Martin-McGuiness-in-Parliament.html

PIRA and their supporters must have been open mouthed with astonishment at behaviour like this.

 

[Simster]

You'll have to take my word for my experiences in south armagh,as for corbyn observing a minutes silence for the provos killed by the SAS at Loughall here are some sources:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7d242bcc-3126-11e5-8873-775ba7c2ea3d.html#axzz3gnOxDKfU

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2015/07/20/news/corbyn-not-envisaged-in-labour-shadow-cabinets-197713/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...Adams-and-Martin-McGuiness-in-Parliament.html

PIRA and their supporters must have been open mouthed with astonishment at behaviour like this.

I do, of course, believe your own story but have trouble with all of your sources with regards to Corbyn's conduct.

The FT is behind a paywall, the Irish Times article isn't conclusive and none of them really provide any context behind the minute's silence he may or may not have observed. To be honest, I want direct quotes from the man himself explaining these actions. I think it's long been proven that any spiral of violence will never end without dialog. Look at the Middle East and the way the Israelis arrogantly accuse others of terrorism despite the severe provocation they themselves are responsible for.

 

[alfredmizen]

I do, of course, believe your own story but have trouble with all of your sources with regards to Corbyn's conduct.

The FT is behind a paywall, the Irish Times article isn't conclusive and none of them really provide any context behind the minute's silence he may or may not have observed. To be honest, I want direct quotes from the man himself explaining these actions. I think it's long been proven that any spiral of violence will never end without dialog. Look at the Middle East and the way the Israelis arrogantly accuse others of terrorism despite the severe provocation they themselves are responsible for.

fair enough with your reservations about my sources, i am sure if corbyn is elected leader these stories will be pursued, it will be interesting to see if he stands by his principles once he has a whiff of genuine power, as for your stand on dialogue, i support it fully, my point about corbyn, which i seem to be fruyitlessly hammering away at , is that corbyn has never indulged in 'dialogue' he's never had the power or a mandate to do this, all he has ever done is offer unconditional support to the IRA , whilst they were fully operational and engaged in a war against the british state, dont forget there were more squaddies killed in NI than both iraq and afghanistan ( though i certainly wouldnt put it on a par with the experiences of soldiers in afghanistan) , THAT, is my problem with corbyn, and anyone who chooses to overlook that, or maybe not overlook it in some cases.