[Football] Jacob Rees-Mogg.

[beorhthelm]

"The lady" got a first class degree in PPE from Oxford and then read African Studies at St Antony's college. But I'm sure you know better

i dont "know better", im just observing the clip. Rees-Moog is making a contrived point comparing the numbers died in concentration camp to Glasgow. our well read lady objects on grounds of incredulity and chips in incorrectly "hundreds of thousands died" (see twitter posts above). she missed the open goal, when he said they were there for their protection, that they needed protecting from the British army destroying their farms. or tell me how im wrong here?

 

[portlock seagull]

"The lady" got a first class degree in PPE from Oxford and then read African Studies at St Antony's college. But I'm sure you know better

I’ve studied history all my life, not just for a few months. It’s a vast canvas, so did she study the boer war re: Africa because it’s a bit like saying I know geography I.e. which bit, there are hundreds of fields (see what I did there!) to study. Sure she’s not stupid, but doesn’t mean she knows what she’s talking about although she definitely tried to manipulate emotions and laypersons opinions by using the concentration camp which most people associate with the far more sinister Nazi versions including extermination camps (and again, most people aren’t aware of the difference). All this before you factor in different times, mortality rates, standards and so forth: it’s like we have a disease in this country, many people constantly attacking our past and judging it in context of today. National self loathing is a very peculiar British sport. Anyway, if people want to get that sanctimonious about our treatment, during a war, of the Boers then perhaps ask who did the Boers displace / why were they there etc? And then go back even further and find out about the periodic genocides between tribes that took place. Desmond Morris is a fine place to start your reading folks if interested.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

i dont "know better", im just observing the clip. Rees-Moog is making a contrived point comparing the numbers died in concentration camp to Glasgow. our well read lady objects on grounds of incredulity and chips in incorrectly "hundreds of thousands died" (see twitter posts above). she missed the open goal, when he said they were there for their protection, that they needed protecting from the British army destroying their farms. or tell me how im wrong here?

I’m going to have apologise here [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION], I was actually originally meaning to quote the post below from [MENTION=663]portlock seagull[/MENTION] but got confused. As you can see, he claims the “young woman didn’t have a clue what she was talking about” which is clearly nonsense.

The young woman on the panel demonising Churchill didn’t have a clue what she was talking about and it showed when JRM calmly put her in her place and she went all face pulling and huffy like Kevin the teenager. It was a delight to watch actually.

 

[portlock seagull]

I’m going to have apologise here [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION], I was actually originally meaning to quote the post below from [MENTION=663]portlock seagull[/MENTION] but got confused. As you can see, he claims the “young woman didn’t have a clue what she was talking about” which is clearly nonsense.

She certainly gave that impression and didn’t articulate very well if so (and therefore it’s ‘clearly’ not a case of ‘clearly’ as you put it) what so ever. Failed to turn up when it mattered I guess, definitely a 2-nil home win for JRM on last nights show and the result stands regardless. She needs to sharpen her pencils if she is such an expert and looks like she admits that in the post match media centre interviews.

 

[Easy 10]

Unfortunately she didn’t come from Greece...

She had a thirst for knowledge though

 

[Rodney Thomas]

I’ve studied history all my life, not just for a few months. It’s a vast canvas, so did she study the boer war re: Africa because it’s a bit like saying I know geography I.e. which bit, there are hundreds of fields (see what I did there!) to study. Sure she’s not stupid, but doesn’t mean she knows what she’s talking about although she definitely tried to manipulate emotions and laypersons opinions by using the concentration camp which most people associate with the far more sinister Nazi versions including extermination camps (and again, most people aren’t aware of the difference). All this before you factor in different times, mortality rates, standards and so forth: it’s like we have a disease in this country, many people constantly attacking our past and judging it in context of today. National self loathing is a very peculiar British sport. Anyway, if people want to get that sanctimonious about our treatment, during a war, of the Boers then perhaps ask who did the Boers displace / why were they there etc? And then go back even further and find out about the periodic genocides between tribes that took place. Desmond Morris is a fine place to start your reading folks if interested.

I am also a history graduate, you’re correct that it’s a broad subject matter, which bit did you study? (For me it was modern European history where I chose to focus more on Eastern Europe during the cold war along with Yugoslavia during the Second World War).

I’d suggest that having read African studies at Oxford, Grace Blakeley would have been exposed to aspects of the Boer war. I obviously don’t know that for certain but it stands to reason that she probably does “have a clue”.

Regarding your point about national self loathing, I must admit I see this more as a reaction to what I perceive as a British triumphalism. Personally I put this down to the history curriculum taught in schools (which is as far as most peoples interest in history goes) focusing on two world wars and not a lot else.

Oh and I agree with you that history should be judged in some context. Your whataboutary at the end regarding the Dutch is a bit moot though, they were ****ing awful to their colonies but does that excuse very questionable British behaviour during the war?

 

[drew]

As the historian whose tweet I posted earlier said, we don't have to judge it from the standards of our time, we can listen to people who were there.

"Rees-Mogg says we mustn't make judgments "from the comfort of 2019". We don't have to. Emily Hobhouse, who exposed the camps at the time, accused Kitchener of "a degradation both to the office & the manhood of your soldiers. I feel ashamed to own you as a fellow-countryman." "

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on the period but she was a campaigner. Notwithstanding her account, I would still maintain that most of us judge things based on our experiences and knowledge of how we have lived. I don't know what it would have been like to live through the blitz even though my grandparents did, regardless of how many accounts you read.

Going back to the topic of concentrations camps, why was this brought up in the first place as I thought that during the Boer War, Churchill was merely a war correspondent.

 

[Gwylan]

Going back to the topic of concentrations camps, why was this brought up in the first place as I thought that during the Boer War, Churchill was merely a war correspondent.

That's a good question. He wasn't merely a war correspondent, that's what he went there to be but he rejoined the army when he was there. He was, however, a very junior officer and would have had no say in any policy and certainly had nothing to do with the camps.

 

[Hugo Rune]

The Boer War seems absolutely terrible.

However, what I found interesting was the surnames of the Boer leaders and generals:

South African Republic Paul Kruger
South African Republic Louis Botha
South African Republic Schalk W. Burger
South African Republic Koos de la Rey
Orange Free State Martinus Steyn
Orange Free State Christiaan de Wet
South African Republic Piet Cronjé (POW)
South African Republic Piet Joubert

How many South African cricketers can you spot?

 

[drew]

That's a good question. He wasn't merely a war correspondent, that's what he went there to be but he rejoined the army when he was there. He was, however, a very junior officer and would have had no say in any policy and certainly had nothing to do with the camps.

He did spend some of the time as a prisoner of war.