Neville's Breakfast
Well-known member
Now that did make me laugh. The spirit of football IS cheating, whether that’s fans, players or managers. The only ones even trying to stem the tide are referees and they are the ones who get the abuse.
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[Albion] Ivan Toney: clever or cheating?
- Thread starter Bozza
- Start date
Clever or cheating? A bit of both really. VAR should have picked it up, but who can rely on VAR to do anything worthwhile?
Referees (and VAR) will now be aware of the trick (I suspect they'll get a briefing about it form the PGMOL this week) and players won't be likely to get away with it in the future. One yellow card for unsporting behaviour and the practice will most likely just stop.
Referees (and VAR) will now be aware of the trick (I suspect they'll get a briefing about it form the PGMOL this week) and players won't be likely to get away with it in the future. One yellow card for unsporting behaviour and the practice will most likely just stop.
This is it for me. VAR should have picked it up, but I wonder if the VAR review starts from the moment the ball is "in play" for these ones? The referees can't be expected to see everything on the field of play, it's a nigh on impossible job as it is.
In all honesty, it's unsportsmanlike behaviour, a yellow card and a retake in an ideal world. As it is, it's clever cheating.
Random aside, I heard on the Totally Football podcast that Ivan Toney's full name is: Ivan Benjamin Elijah Toney... Initials, I BET. Lovely little detail.
Stato
Well-known member
- Dec 21, 2011
- 7,422
Players will seek any advantage they can. MotD2 last night finished with a cheeky free kicks montage. This included Coventry's wonderful donkey kick that they subsequently changed the laws to prevent, but also Dunky's goal against Liverpool when he asked the ref whether he could take it when Allison was still messing about with his wall. Dunky didn't cheat, but what he did may be seen as not particularly in the spirit of the game, expecially as when he did it again against Sheffield United, Lee Mason had a breakdown and ruled it out despite not being able to say that an offence had been committed. The discussion around Toney's actions pointed out that players try this kind of thing all the time, particularly with throw ins, so it seems unfair to single out one of them for particular condemnation just because he got away with it and it resulted in a goal. The ref's will be watching more carefully in the future and the players will look for other ways to push the boundaries. It's all part of the fun unless you happen to be on the receiving end of it.
Could well be, and if so, it typifies for me one of the main reasons (apart from incompetence) that VAR has been such a car crash in the PL. Somebody (PGMOL?) has decided to try to over-manage it by producing a list of times when VAR can act and when it can't.
If they'd just left it as, "Call it if you think the ref has made an absolute ricket, or if something's happened that he's obviously missed" (referees don't have eyes in the back of their heads after all) then the VAR roll-out may not have been quite the disaster it has been.
Dunk's goal at Anfield is really not comparable in the slightest. It is COMPLETELY within the rules, and the spirit of things, that the team offended against is not penalised on the award of a free kick.
Unless the ref informs you he wants you to wait (for example if he is issuing a caution), then you can take it whenever you wish. If you want him to ensure that the opposition wall / players are 10 yards away though, then once you have made that decision not to take it quickly, you must wait for his signal to proceed.
(the Lee Mason shambles was at West Brom, btw)
I feel we are at a cross roads when it comes to VAR, the unlikely road is it getting taken away, the more realistic one is we go all in.
There are goals scored from incorrectly given corners/throws/free kicks/ events like Saturday, plus dives not penalised which affect games etc etc and none of these are checked.
Already seeing rumbles of managers pushing for it and the Law makers wanting it.
Btw - it's a mess everywhere not just the PL, look at the Real game last night.
sydney
tinky ****in winky
why would VAR not inform the ref that his mark has been interfered with....?? weak from VAR , weak from the ref and snide from Toney
ROSM
Well-known member
Is it? Its nigh on impossible for managers and clubs to question refs on a matchday now. Howard webb is very keen to do his one sided tv programme with michael (not very incisive) owen. How else do they seek clarification?
portlock seagull
Well-known member
- Jul 28, 2003
- 17,962
Unfortunately though VAR has proven time and gain to be a failure, the lunatics really do run the asylum when it comes to our National game. Expect same arguments to be around forever in the future too. They will do nothing.
It’s not on the list of things VAR can intervene for is it ?
Onfield ref should simply have asked him to move it back - also not sure seeking to gain an advantage from moving the position of the ball at a free kick (or throw) is even a yellow card offence - it happens all the time.
He got away with a bit of cheating, presumably because the onfield ref and lino missed it
Milano
Well-known member
Am I the only one who found the ‘welcome back’ to IT completely depressing?
He’s a CHEAT, and seems to have decided to underline that fact to the world in his actual first game back. Yet you’d think he’d recovered from a double ACL against all the odds. His story sums up all that is wrong with professional football, throw in his agent telling him to go on strike in the next 9 days to force a move to Arsenal and it would be the complete picture.
He’s a CHEAT, and seems to have decided to underline that fact to the world in his actual first game back. Yet you’d think he’d recovered from a double ACL against all the odds. His story sums up all that is wrong with professional football, throw in his agent telling him to go on strike in the next 9 days to force a move to Arsenal and it would be the complete picture.
Pinkie Brown
Wir Sind das Volk
I haven't seen the incident but as I find Toney quite a dislikable individual - I voted he cheated.
The forest argument is that it was part of the goal, so should fall under the purview of the VAR.
I think the problem is two fold - one, there was still time for the wall to be adjusted, it's a dead ball situation, so is it a case of a new phase of play when the ball is kicked and now is in play; two, referees have always shown a degree of leniency on placement of the ball for set pieces, so would this really constitute a clear and obvious error - would the ref have made Toney move the ball back a bit if he saw him move it.
Would have been fun, I think, to see the goal disallowed for that, but at the same time I can see a massive negative reaction to them chalking off a goal for it, too.
GoingUp
Well-known member
Toney placed his bets 10yrs ago, the last one being 7yrs ago, for a total of £4k. They were for his team to win too, it's not like he placed the bets recently and was involved in placing spot bets.
Football needs to really clamp down on betting sponsorships and promoting it every two mins, instead of acting holier than thou when someone gets pulled up for a bet they placed 10yrs ago.
Football needs to really clamp down on betting sponsorships and promoting it every two mins, instead of acting holier than thou when someone gets pulled up for a bet they placed 10yrs ago.
Milano
Well-known member
For me it wasn’t that he moved the ball, that happens all the time and ref either spots it or not. It was him moving the foam stuff which is my problem, that is blatent cheating and it means that he KNEW that he was cheating. He is a dishonest person, which is why I called bullshit on his gambling addiction.
ROSM
Well-known member
Are you sure? He was still at newcastle until 2018 and i thought the bets were still happening then including betting on newcastle to lose (although he wasn't playing on those games)
Given he was caught in 2021, gave misleading/inaccurate answers to investigators and then declared an addiction which hadnt been raised or sought help for previously (why would you need to do that of you havent bet for so long?)
This.
Not defending him at all, but that last bit is easy enough: he moved his gambling habit out of football and into something else. Just because he stopped betting on football, doesn't mean he stopped betting completely - entirely possible he was still wasting thousands betting on other sports / in casinos, etc.