Italian Constitutional Election - Dec 4th. Potentially another BREXIT/Trump moment?

[studio150]

I direct you to http://www.minibus.ltd.uk/minibus-dimensions-web10.html , as this is a 9 seater minibus, with 1 of those seats being occupied by the driver. but, I guess Tim 'Mr Nobody Knows Me' Fallon could multi-task and drive as well and keep costs down.

I would not take any notice of that site in relation to defining a minibus. I would look at The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 Part 1 instead,

 

[Pavilionaire]

But I don't care about the Lib Dems. That's the whole point - I think they have become an irrelevance in British politics. The purpose of referring to him/Lib Dems was in relation to another poster saying that the Lib Dems would be targeting Remainers and this would be a concern to the Tories. Hence my reference to the minibus and the 9 (wow) Lib Dems. So, if I got his name wrong, I don't really care. I can't be bothered to spend time on the Lib Dems as they don't fringing matter. They won a seat in an area which was one of the highest Remain voting constituencies in the country, and they made it a single policy vote there. That won't work in a general election when the voters will be focussed on who runs the country.

SO, the Lib Dems - UKIP has more popular support than them.

I don't agree with you at all Roughly half of the UK are left/left of centre voters and with Labour in a bad way and the Lib Dems generally reflecting many of the concerns of the 48% they're sure to do better in the next General Election.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I don't agree with you at all Roughly half of the UK are left/left of centre voters and with Labour in a bad way and the Lib Dems generally reflecting many of the concerns of the 48% they're sure to do better in the next General Election.

clutching at straws.............. typical remoaner
regards
DR

 

[looney]

The EU is dead, long live Europe!!

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

Yes agree.

Its not quite dead yet although it probably will be if or by the time the Libdems get the opportunity to screw the people over. Big if.

 

[beorhthelm]

I don't agree with you at all Roughly half of the UK are left/left of centre voters and with Labour in a bad way and the Lib Dems generally reflecting many of the concerns of the 48% they're sure to do better in the next General Election.

they reflect a concern. other than Europe, most of those 48% looked elsewhere for representation in the election a mere 18 mths ago.

 

[looney]

clutching at straws.............. typical remoaner
regards
DR

I dont think its helpful calling them remoaners. People who take a glib view of Democracy and are happy to be ruled by a Euro Acien regime of Bureaucrats are going to be dismissive of a popular direct democratic vote in the form of a referendum. This I take as a given, these Scum suckers will have to be fought every inch of the way, I also see this as self evident.

Time to make Britain Great again.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Good for The Liberal Democrats. They're arguing a cause and growing as a party all the time. Personally I think they will win seats back off the Conservatives at the next election that they lost to them in 2015. An uncomfortable thought for the more paranoiac Brexit voters out there, I'm sure.

I'm pleased I voted for Catherine Bearder in the European Election in 2014, the one-and-only time I voted Lib-Dem incidentally. She argued to the Government for fishing quotas to be re-addressed to help smaller fleets, such as in Hastings. I suppose our UKIP MEP's were too busy drinking to bother.

If you really think it's sensible or good for a supposed mainstram 'progrssive' party to do all it can to thwart the democratic choice of the majority then I am afaid you have little understanding of the forces their actions (if succesful) could unleash. The EU Chief negotiator has been warmly applauding their efforts .. which should tell you something.

It was an election, not a referendum. Two different things. Though, guessing by what you said, you're cool with voting fraud even where the Austrian Constitutional Court found clear proof of the electoral laws being broken. But hey, that's democracy, one side wins, the other has to shut up, yeah?

Hey a majority voted for a different outcome to the one you wanted, that's democracy .. get over it. By all means carry on saying they were wrong, even argue for change some time in the future but any attempt to reverse or block the decision before it has been enacted is contemptible to anyone who really believes in democracy.

I'm not sure what's undemocratic about it - surely the fact that they can take an opposite position to that of a slight majority is evidence of democracy in action?

See above.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I dont think its helpful calling them remoaners. People who take a glib view of Democracy and are happy to be ruled by a Euro Acien regime of Bureaucrats are going to be dismissive of a popular direct democratic vote in the form of a referendum. This I take as a given, these Scum suckers will have to be fought every inch of the way, I also see this as self evident.

Time to make Britain Great again.

Sadly that's turning out to be true.

 

[Igzilla]

I dont think its helpful calling them remoaners. People who take a glib view of Democracy and are happy to be ruled by a Euro Acien regime of Bureaucrats are going to be dismissive of a popular direct democratic vote in the form of a referendum. This I take as a given, these Scum suckers will have to be fought every inch of the way, I also see this as self evident.

Time to make Britain Great again.

Sadly that's turning out to be true.

Sadly, use of referenda and plebiscites are favoured tools of demogogues and tyrants to give their extreme views a thin veneer of democratic legitimacy. Even Thatcher could see that.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Sadly, use of referenda and plebiscites are favoured tools of demogogues and tyrants to give their extreme views a thin veneer of democratic legitimacy. Even Thatcher could see that.

Yeah David Cameron and Renzi are demagogues and tyrants of course. Not to mention many other EU states leaders who were in power for the Lisbon treaty referenda elsewhere. Note, all these took place whilst in the EU and the EU has been quite happy for re-runs of referenda when the results didn't turn out the 'right' way.

 

[ManOfSussex]

If you really think it's sensible or good for a supposed mainstram 'progrssive' party to do all it can to thwart the democratic choice of the majority then I am afaid you have little understanding of the forces their actions (if succesful) could unleash.

Lose badly at the next general election or something else? Do elaborate, it sounds interesting.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Lose badly at the next general election or something else? Do elaborate, it sounds interesting.

Obviously, they have no chance at the General election but they do have the opportunity and desire to slow/thwart the process in the Lords.

'There is a smell of defeatism in the air, a widespread view that the people have spoken and that we must respect them and accept their verdict. What nonsense! There is nothing sacred about a referendum vote, any more than the result of a General Election. We Lib Dems cannot accept Brexit because it would be a calamity that would undo everything we have always fought for ...' Lord Dick Taverne

On the plus side two Lib Dem members of the upper house had the decency to resign over their undemocratic stance.

If they were in any way successful I expect those that hardly ever or never voted but bothered this time would give up on democracy entirely. Those that argued the EU (and it's supporters) only have time for democracy when the correct answer is given would be proved right. Many of them would also lose faith in the democratic process. Who could blame them. The anger apparently felt by some Remainers would be multiplied ten fold on the Leave side, increasing bitterness, division and driving people to the extremes. Quite a price for relaunching/saving the Lib Dem's imo.

 

[GT49er]

I don't agree with you at all Roughly half of the UK are left/left of centre voters and with Labour in a bad way and the Lib Dems generally reflecting many of the concerns of the 48% they're sure to do better in the next General Election.

....and of course all those left/left centre voters will be queuing up to vote for the party that in 2010, desperate to put power before principles, supported and kept in power a minority tory government. Stands to reason, eh?

 

[Igzilla]

Yeah David Cameron and Renzi are demagogues and tyrants of course. Not to mention many other EU states leaders who were in power for the Lisbon treaty referenda elsewhere. Note, all these took place whilst in the EU and the EU has been quite happy for re-runs of referenda when the results didn't turn out the 'right' way.

Only Ireland held a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, which was rejected initially (53% vs 47% on a 53% turnout). Research showed people were unsure what it all meant. This delayed the ratification of the Treaty until Ireland had negotiated some specific guarantees and the re-run was then massively in favour (63% vs 37% on a 50% turnout). Either results shows what a crappy way a referendum is to decide something.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

What a disgusting person Lord Dick Tavern is.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Only Ireland held a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, which was rejected initially (53% vs 47% on a 53% turnout). Research showed people were unsure what it all meant. This delayed the ratification of the Treaty until Ireland had negotiated some specific guarantees and the re-run was then massively in favour (63% vs 37% on a 50% turnout). Either results shows what a crappy way a referendum is to decide something.

There were other referenda called by countries in the EU, from the top of my head, Danish and one in France. My point is that just because referenda have been used by demagogues etc, it doesn't follow that this is always the case. I have to say that I am increasingly of the opinion that they are potentially very harmful, which is what we see here in Britain.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Obviously, they have no chance at the General election but they do have the opportunity and desire to slow/thwart the process in the Lords.

'There is a smell of defeatism in the air, a widespread view that the people have spoken and that we must respect them and accept their verdict. What nonsense! There is nothing sacred about a referendum vote, any more than the result of a General Election. We Lib Dems cannot accept Brexit because it would be a calamity that would undo everything we have always fought for ...' Lord Dick Taverne

On the plus side two Lib Dem members of the upper house had the decency to resign over their undemocratic stance.

If they were in any way successful I expect those that hardly ever or never voted but bothered this time would give up on democracy entirely. Those that argued the EU (and it's supporters) only have time for democracy when the correct answer is given would be proved right. Many of them would also lose faith in the democratic process. Who could blame them. The anger apparently felt by some Remainers would be multiplied ten fold on the Leave side, increasing bitterness, division and driving people to the extremes. Quite a price for relaunching/saving the Lib Dem's imo.

None of which will happen and there are issues other than Brexit out there.

I will certainly not be voting for a Conservative party in 2020 that endorses the devastation being caused to lives and businesses across Sussex and our football club by the Southern Rail situation and in my constituency I'm left with little option of where to put my protest vote.

 

[Igzilla]

There were other referenda called by countries in the EU, from the top of my head, Danish and one in France. My point is that just because referenda have been used by demagogues etc, it doesn't follow that this is always the case. I have to say that I am increasingly of the opinion that they are potentially very harmful, which is what we see here in Britain.

There were referenda held in 2004/5 over the EU Constitution in Spain, France, Luxembourg and Holland. France and Holland voted No, but neither were "re-run" and the EU Constitution was then revised and rewritten as the Lisbon Treaty.

 

[looney]

Sadly, use of referenda and plebiscites are favoured tools of demogogues and tyrants to give their extreme views a thin veneer of democratic legitimacy. Even Thatcher could see that.

You know the definition of tyrant is not giving people a choice because they can lose? Even Pinochet stepped down when he lost the second referendum on his rule.

I dont think democracy and tyranny mean what you think they do.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

There were referenda held in 2004/5 over the EU Constitution in Spain, France, Luxembourg and Holland. France and Holland voted No, but neither were "re-run" and the EU Constitution was then revised and rewritten as the Lisbon Treaty.

Which was sneakily allowed to become law without the approval of those nations which had rejected the original. That is one of the reasons that so many people have become disillusioned with the EU.