Is no statue safe?

[darkwolf666]

just to add that the pyramid/slave thing is debated by egyptologists.

Yes, I have seen a lot of confirmation bias, as is the current stock phrase, to prove this point...

Like a lot of things, it goes to suite an agenda for those that present it.

Also, I guess it depends on your definition of "slave". Is a conscripted soldier, serving his monarch (pharaoh), a slave?

 

[Bold Seagull]

It apparently said on the TV it was on the BLM target list, and they would 'house it' elsewhere in the future.

A very sad day, when mob rule wins the argument.

What next, Crass guesting on the Britain's Got Talent?

Well, I had a quick poke around, it’s not BLM, which isn’t even an entity is it to make a list??, it is a website in the UK promoting debate and asking local communities to decide what to do with their statues. I know I’ve had a bit of a history lesson this week, been quite interesting in that regard.

https://www.toppletheracists.org

Council being very cautious in protecting their statue, and rightly so too, really don’t want to see any vandalism or mob behaviour.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Someone else flippantly mentioned the flattening of the pyramids (built by slaves), how about a bit closer to home Stonehenge. I'm guessing it wasn't a gang of YTS students that dragged some of those Bluestones 200 miles...

In all seriousness though I can't make my mind up about the whitewashing (pun intended) of history. You can find offence in probably every person who is ever put up to have a statue made of them, maybe not always on the grounds if racism, but other equally valid reasons Dame Maggie of Grantham for starters...

As a further aside, will all those whose statues are now being ripped down have their titles removed.

Will families whose ancestors built their wealth from the slave trade and other dubious means have their country homes, estates and bank accounts raided?

Where does it end?

Exactly.
What about some war reparation from Germany ( they can afford it....thats two wars by the way ) What about China making good the global economic loss suffered through Covid 19. What about Switzerland returning some of the ill gotten gains sitting in its vaults? And as for the Elgin Marbles....don't get me started.

 

[Deadly Danson]

Sacred nothing is?

 

[Stat Brother]

Yes, I have seen a lot of confirmation bias, as is the current stock phrase, to prove this point...

Like a lot of things, it goes to suite an agenda for those that present it.

Also, I guess it depends on your definition of "slave". Is a conscripted soldier, serving his monarch (pharaoh), a slave?

Is someone illegally kept working in the middle East without papers, access to leave while living in inhumane conditions a slave?

I guess this is only an issue for those who don't have billion dollar defense contracts and a desire to buy Premier League football teams.

 

[scamander]

Yes, I have seen a lot of confirmation bias, as is the current stock phrase, to prove this point...

Like a lot of things, it goes to suite an agenda for those that present it.

Also, I guess it depends on your definition of "slave". Is a conscripted soldier, serving his monarch (pharaoh), a slave?

I think it's as much about how we recognise slavery and define it in societies which existed BCE. Social structures were very different. Trying to map more modern definitions across needs to accept the nuances.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Any Churchill statue has got to go.
The man has so much to answer for. If he had simply stood aside and let Halifax and his cronies negotiate, then all this could have been avoided. We could have kept our identity and our Commonwealth. The USA wouldn't have got involved and that would have left a European superstate called Germania, stretching from the French beaches to the Steppes of Russia. No black faces, no Jews, no Gypsies, no homosexuals or lesbians. No handicapped or mentally challenged. No dwarfs. No giants. Just fair haired, blue eyed Aryans living a peaceful existence. Yes, a few million would have died on the way but that is the price of progress. Eventually, we would have been taken over and absorbed into the new Fatherland as well. Just imagine. No need for an EU. Germany would always win the Euro's. ( Not much change there ) One belief, one language, one currency and everyone supporting Bayern Munich.
He has a lot to answer for.

 

[drew]

Some redistribution would certainly be welcome, why should they live such privileged lives built on the ancestors of those who (many of) still live in poverty?

And how would you suggest that is accomplished? Who decides exactly who benefited and how much?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Any Churchill statue has got to go.
The man has so much to answer for. If he had simply stood aside and let Halifax and his cronies negotiate, then all this could have been avoided. We could have kept our identity and our Commonwealth. The USA wouldn't have got involved and that would have left a European superstate called Germania, stretching from the French beaches to the Steppes of Russia. No black faces, no Jews, no Gypsies, no homosexuals or lesbians. No handicapped or mentally challenged. No dwarfs. No giants. Just fair haired, blue eyed Aryans living a peaceful existence. Yes, a few million would have died on the way but that is the price of progress. Eventually, we would have been taken over and absorbed into the new Fatherland as well. Just imagine. No need for an EU. Germany would always win the Euro's. ( Not much change there ) One belief, one language, one currency and everyone supporting Bayern Munich.
He has a lot to answer for.

Childish.

It is possible, if you try really hard, to accept that some people can do good AND bad things. One might, or might not outweigh the other, but to debate it, is justified.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Perhaps it's time to accept that none of our ancestors were worthy of the enlightened, knowledgeable, and above all superior people that we are today.

Look at all the statues in the country. How many of them supported votes for women? How many of them opposed homosexuality? How many of them benefitted from the work of slaves? How many of them supported the wrong politics? Anyone who does not meet our modern, perfect standards must go. If your parents or grandparents held the wrong views, disown them. Refuse to accept their inheritance. Change your name. And while we're at it, destroy all the statues and change the names of every town and place that was named after a person - because whoever they were, they were not worthy of us. We are the perfect people, all those who went before are not worthy of our acknowledgement.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Perhaps it's time to accept that none of our ancestors were worthy of the enlightened, knowledgeable, and above all superior people that we are today.

Look at all the statues in the country. How many of them supported votes for women? How many of them opposed homosexuality? How many of them benefitted from the work of slaves? How many of them supported the wrong politics? Anyone who does not meet our modern, perfect standards must go. If your parents or grandparents held the wrong views, disown them. Refuse to accept their inheritance. Change your name. And while we're at it, destroy all the statues and change the names of every town and place that was named after a person - because whoever they were, they were not worthy of us. We are the perfect people, all those who went before are not worthy of our acknowledgement.

Are you twelve?

 

[drew]

All the talk at the moment is of statues but if these all get removed, what if the activists then turn their attention to artwork? There are many portraits at the National Portrait Gallery that would equally be prime targets.

 

[The Clamp]

I think you are terribly confused. Why are you posting garbage about Brexit on a thread about historical statues. There is a thread specifically on Brexit and it occupies almost every waking minute of every day for about ten people, in general, who are obsessed about the subject and one of those is you. Its bad enough coping with a sector of society who want to pull down every historical artefact in this country without being reminded of the bitterness and rancour surrounding Brexit, that certain people want to perpetuate for the rest of their lives.
I know...I'll just pop over to the Brexit thread and post something about statues in the EU.

It’s a bitter pill to swallow, I agree. Just pondering the bigger picture. There are certainly connections to be made for those willing to face the holistic landscape.

Nevertheless, I mean no harm, merely observing the division.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Any Churchill statue has got to go.
The man has so much to answer for. If he had simply stood aside and let Halifax and his cronies negotiate, then all this could have been avoided. We could have kept our identity and our Commonwealth. The USA wouldn't have got involved and that would have left a European superstate called Germania, stretching from the French beaches to the Steppes of Russia. No black faces, no Jews, no Gypsies, no homosexuals or lesbians. No handicapped or mentally challenged. No dwarfs. No giants. Just fair haired, blue eyed Aryans living a peaceful existence. Yes, a few million would have died on the way but that is the price of progress. Eventually, we would have been taken over and absorbed into the new Fatherland as well. Just imagine. No need for an EU. Germany would always win the Euro's. ( Not much change there ) One belief, one language, one currency and everyone supporting Bayern Munich.
He has a lot to answer for.

Now, I’m not for a second commenting on the statue, but isn’t seeing the contradictions within our historic figures really interesting? The dogmatic cultural approach to Churchill in all my learning was pretty much an infallible greatest leader we ever had. But isn’t the truth far more interesting, warts and all?

Again not for a second suggesting we take statues down, but the debate is fascinating, never be afraid of knowledge. I didn’t know about Coulston or Rhodes until this week, perhaps being in my mid-40s makes me susceptible to history documentaries on iPlayer, podcasts and the Simon Schamas of this world, but learning Baden-Powell called Mein Kampf, which you kind of satirise above, ‘a wonderful book’, makes me more interested in him, not less. The scouts were not far off being aligned with Hitler Youth with only the outbreak of war potentially stopping it from happening - conjecture of course, but fascinating none the less.

Tearing down statues by a protesting mob to me is bad, but debating historical truths isn’t. Don’t be fearful that once held beliefs of someone’s heroic status may have masked uncomfortable realities. We can still revere historic cultural figures but only through all that we know about them, not burying the bits we don’t like.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Re. Baden Powell.... I am no great fan of him and never was a Scout, but I hope they put it back once the heat is off. I dont like to see mob rule and anarchy prevailing

Nope. Stick him in a museum so that future generations can learn about the complexities of History.

"A quick look into his history shows that he was very open about his views against homosexuality and that he was a very open supporter of Hitler and of fascism and quite a strong, outspoken racist.

"We can commemorate the positive work without commemorating the man." BBC

Wake up! In 2020, no one wants to see a statue of a racist, homophobic fascist. It’s so sad that it took a mob to shake the Country into action.

 

[Bakero]

Now, I’m not for a second commenting on the statue, but isn’t seeing the contradictions within our historic figures really interesting? The dogmatic cultural approach to Churchill in all my learning was pretty much an infallible greatest leader we ever had. But isn’t the truth far more interesting, warts and all?

Again not for a second suggesting we take statues down, but the debate is fascinating, never be afraid of knowledge. I didn’t know about Coulston or Rhodes until this week, perhaps being in my mid-40s makes me susceptible to history documentaries on iPlayer, podcasts and the Simon Schamas of this world, but learning Baden-Powell called Mein Kampf, which you kind of satirise above, ‘a wonderful book’, makes me more interested in him, not less. The scouts were not far off being aligned with Hitler Youth with only the outbreak of war potentially stopping it from happening - conjecture of course, but fascinating none the less.

Tearing down statues by a protesting mob to me is bad, but debating historical truths isn’t. Don’t be fearful that once held beliefs of someone’s heroic status may have masked uncomfortable realities. We can still revere historic cultural figures but only through all that we know about them, not burying the bits we don’t like.

The problem is in the UK we haven't fully dealt with the dark parts of our history. Education is, well, certainly was, focused on triumph, progress and success. As a nation we can't move forward until we've had an honest conversation about the past.

 

[Bakero]

Nope. Stick him in a museum so that future generations can learn about the complexities of History.

"A quick look into his history shows that he was very open about his views against homosexuality and that he was a very open supporter of Hitler and of fascism and quite a strong, outspoken racist.

"We can commemorate the positive work without commemorating the man." BBC

Wake up! In 2020, no one wants to see a statue of a racist, homophobic fascist. It’s so sad that it took a mob to shake the Country into action.

I wonder how many would support a Jimmy Saville statue with a hagiographic plaque eulogising his charity work.

 

[Stat Brother]

Now, I’m not for a second commenting on the statue, but isn’t seeing the contradictions within our historic figures really interesting? The dogmatic cultural approach to Churchill in all my learning was pretty much an infallible greatest leader we ever had. But isn’t the truth far more interesting, warts and all?

Again not for a second suggesting we take statues down, but the debate is fascinating, never be afraid of knowledge. I didn’t know about Coulston or Rhodes until this week, perhaps being in my mid-40s makes me susceptible to history documentaries on iPlayer, podcasts and the Simon Schamas of this world, but learning Baden-Powell called Mein Kampf, which you kind of satirise above, ‘a wonderful book’, makes me more interested in him, not less. The scouts were not far off being aligned with Hitler Youth with only the outbreak of war potentially stopping it from happening - conjecture of course, but fascinating none the less.

Tearing down statues by a protesting mob to me is bad, but debating historical truths isn’t. Don’t be fearful that once held beliefs of someone’s heroic status may have masked uncomfortable realities. We can still revere historic cultural figures but only through all that we know about them, not burying the bits we don’t like.

As has been frequently pointed out, we were taught about The Tudors and Stuart's then straight into WW's I & Ii, with just a sprinkling of Empire.

Like you I knew next to nothing about Coulston, I did know Bristol was the hub of the slave trade, but I couldn't have put a name to it and was amazed I could have put a statue to it.


I don't have a problem with the statues, as such.
But they shouldn't be (I really want to write 'put on a pedestal' ) seen as something they're not.

They need to evolve and change, but most of all they need to be honest.

We're fairly good at new pieces, but let's be better and not be afraid of them.
It turns out the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Sq was as fantastic idea.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Re. Baden Powell.... I am no great fan of him and never was a Scout, but I hope they put it back once the heat is off. I dont like to see mob rule and anarchy prevailing

To be fair, I think plenty of people have been aware of things around Baden Powell for ages.

And it's hardly anarchy if the Local Authority have removed it. It could well be something they were anticipating anyway.

Some people who did good things (although like you I have never been a Baden Powell fan) also did bad things or had shady things in their past. Who'd have guessed it. I'm waiting for it to emerge that Mother Teresa was a serial killer...….. I hope I'm joking.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Columbus statue pulled down and destroyed in the States!!!!!!!
Ignorance knows no bounds. This will now go on and on and on. Anything is fair game now. It will be the ' Royal ' statues next. Someone in high authority has to show some moral courage now and put a stop to this nonsense. People are literally going mad in front of our eyes. If these BLM marches continue, there will be mass confrontations in the streets. Tension is rising. It has to be diffused.

Agree 100%.

Police should not be standing back while statues etc are destroyed.

Do police not know how to deal with civil unrest without accidentally battering innocent bystanders?

Or are they (or their managers, including politicians) deliberately doing nothing for a bit so they can justify a backlash later?

In my book it is as wrong to target black people for stop and search as it is to turn a blind eye if black people start kicking off. In our armchairs, though we are clueless about how racism actually works (and both are examples of it).