Is it time for a new generation to start a new version of BISA?

[attila]

Totally agree, a fact that is undeniable and one for which I will be eternally grateful, having said that numerous times on here and in PM's.

Making it all the more disappointing having been given everything and more that they all tirelessly campaigned for, they now seem hell bent to kick it all down again, due to personal reasons.

Can you give one single justification for this weird remark?

 

[Guinness Boy]

Problems which, on the face of it, would seem to be 'cry cry cry we're not winning anymore cry cry cry'.

Your usual patronising drivel. You should "do lunch" with Paul Barber. The point - obviously - is that we have League One "product" for prices and a corporate ethos more like a mid table Premier League team. Something isn't working in that equation and, if we keep losing, think of what the next step will be. If our current turnover and profit is insufficent then, when we go down, there's a real chance that Tony Bloom would face a choice between bankrupting his family, calling in part of his loan or selling up. Lose every week and in three years you'll have no club. Still, at least you'll have the fascinating cycling to keep you company.

Back to the OP. Whether we need a BISA, old guard or not, is not really the question. A single supporters' group, independent of the club seems desireable on the face of it. Unfortunately the chances of that speaking with one voice are zero. We can't even get our main "singing area" stand to agree on singing the same song at the same time to back the team on the pitch. I run a small blog by myself and occasionally write for TSLR and Stand or Fall 1901. Just one small request from one person at the end of last season exposed a level of politics that had me questioning if even that was worth it. Crack the surface even a tiny bit and you'll find the fans are as riven with divides and personal agendas as I believe the club management are, and yes I include myself in that. The internet has happened. Fan sites have happened. Local supporters groups have happened (and were needed for things like coach travel). You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

 

[burrish-gull]

Your usual patronising drivel. You should "do lunch" with Paul Barber. The point - obviously - is that we have League One "product" for prices and a corporate ethos more like a mid table Premier League team. Something isn't working in that equation and, if we keep losing, think of what the next step will be. If our current turnover and profit is insufficent then, when we go down, there's a real chance that Tony Bloom would face a choice between bankrupting his family, calling in part of his loan or selling up. Lose every week and in three years you'll have no club. Still, at least you'll have the fascinating cycling to keep you company.


Back to the OP. Whether we need a BISA, old guard or not, is not really the question. A single supporters' group, independent of the club seems desireable on the face of it. Unfortunately the chances of that speaking with one voice are zero. We can't even get our main "singing area" stand to agree on singing the same song at the same time to back the team on the pitch. I run a small blog by myself and occasionally write for TSLR and Stand or Fall 1901. Just one small request from one person at the end of last season exposed a level of politics that had me questioning if even that was worth it. Crack the surface even a tiny bit and you'll find the fans are as riven with divides and personal agendas as I believe the club management are, and yes I include myself in that. The internet has happened. Fan sites have happened. Local supporters groups have happened (and were needed for things like coach travel). You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Can't disagree with this, having run a supporters club myself, but I still think there are enough of us "old guard" left to at least put the forward the idea, I'd certainly be interested in what Attila is proposing but it needs new blood and not just those of us who are "battle scarred" from the bad old days.

 

[attila]

Your usual patronising drivel. You should "do lunch" with Paul Barber. The point - obviously - is that we have League One "product" for prices and a corporate ethos more like a mid table Premier League team. Something isn't working in that equation and, if we keep losing, think of what the next step will be. If our current turnover and profit is insufficent then, when we go down, there's a real chance that Tony Bloom would face a choice between bankrupting his family, calling in part of his loan or selling up. Lose every week and in three years you'll have no club. Still, at least you'll have the fascinating cycling to keep you company.

Back to the OP. Whether we need a BISA, old guard or not, is not really the question. A single supporters' group, independent of the club seems desireable on the face of it. Unfortunately the chances of that speaking with one voice are zero. We can't even get our main "singing area" stand to agree on singing the same song at the same time to back the team on the pitch. I run a small blog by myself and occasionally write for TSLR and Stand or Fall 1901. Just one small request from one person at the end of last season exposed a level of politics that had me questioning if even that was worth it. Crack the surface even a tiny bit and you'll find the fans are as riven with divides and personal agendas as I believe the club management are, and yes I include myself in that. The internet has happened. Fan sites have happened. Local supporters groups have happened (and were needed for things like coach travel). You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Unity is strength: that is why 'divide and rule' works. I think the divisions seem greater than they are because of the anonymous nature of a fan message board, actually, and that in the flesh people realise that we're all Albion fans and have the same basic motivation, ie to see our club achieving its full potential. For me, one step towards a more obvious unity would be for everyone to register here under their real name (I'd be happy to be John Baine) because I reckon a lot of the pointless nasty personal stuff would disappear if we were all named individuals. It's easy for Andy Ansah's Utter Incompetence to hurl pointless insults at Chris O'Grady's Hooves, less easy for two fellow Albion fans known to other individuals under their real names to do so.

 

[Stat Brother]

Can you give one single justification for this weird remark?

What other than all the threads and newspaper articles kicking the club the moment the team is losing.
Targeting the chief exec drawing comparisons to those in power in their 'heyday'.

The club had a poor summer on the back of previous papering over the cracks, transfer windows.
The club is losing millions of pounds.
The manager is currently struggling but maybe that is to be expected.
From the outside it would appear money has put the club in its current situation.

None of which has anything to do with a bunch of asset stripping crooks, and yet that's what we keep getting feed.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Unity is strength: that is why 'divide and rule' works. I think the divisions seem greater than they are because of the anonymous nature of a fan message board, actually, and that in the flesh people realise that we're all Albion fans and have the same basic motivation, ie to see our club achieving its full potential. For me, one step towards a more obvious unity would be for everyone to register here under their real name (I'd be happy to be John Baine) because I reckon a lot of the pointless nasty personal stuff would disappear if we were all named individuals. It's easy for Andy Ansah's Utter Incompetence to hurl pointless insults at Chris O'Grady's Hooves, less easy for two fellow Albion fans known to other individuals under their real names to do so.

The thing is we are just as divided at games at the moment. Look at the incident in the NW corner on Friday. Then ask yourself why the NSK would, to a boy, be defending a manger who doesn't know the difference between a midfielder and a twig.

There are certain benefits to anonymity too. People can find my real name with two clicks if they want and I've no issue with that but I also know someone who changed account name because he was being bullied and trolled.

 

[Stat Brother]

Your usual patronising drivel. You should "do lunch" with Paul Barber. The point - obviously - is that we have League One "product" for prices and a corporate ethos more like a mid table Premier League team. Something isn't working in that equation and, if we keep losing, think of what the next step will be. If our current turnover and profit is insufficent then, when we go down, there's a real chance that Tony Bloom would face a choice between bankrupting his family, calling in part of his loan or selling up. Lose every week and in three years you'll have no club. Still, at least you'll have the fascinating cycling to keep you company.

Your quite right its not going well with potential to go badly wrong.

My point is this potential disaster hasn't been bought fully to the fore until we are losing.
Not many people were jumping up and down when we were winning.
The moment it goes wrong not only do get that we get it all linked into 20 years ago.

Sure the clubs financial commitment to one man has been covered but never I guess never taken seriously, certainly by me, after all TB is a fan with more at stake than £56 or whatever the magic number was.
The club needs self-sufficient, I get that.
Now we seem to have gone from potential promotion to relegation and bankruptcy in 4 months.

 

[chairman]

As chairman of the supporters club, we have and always will be independent of the football club as the dark days proved and we played a large part in saving the club. This is my opinion and may not reflect all our members views, as the club has grown we have less influence. They now have no need for our help as they did before. Yes including me our members may be getting long in the tooth, but we have been there and fought hard to save our club. But time does not stand still and we need to move forward as the club is doing.if we as a supporters club are to continue we need new members and people willing and passionate to continue to support our team but only in a independent way. My feeling is the club would love to have one official supporters club run by them so they can can control us and make money out of more and more things without us having any say. People won't join supporters clubs because they cannot offer any advantage,Albion supporters are a large varied bunch with many views, but in the days when we needed to save our club did we come together with one voice, is that time about to come again? If so we will need to again Sondheim the same hymn sheet.just be careful it will be hard to change the way the club is run if you appear to be against it.who takes advice from your enemy , rather than a friend.

 

[Horses Arse]

What other than all the threads and newspaper articles kicking the club the moment the team is losing.
Targeting the chief exec drawing comparisons to those in power in their 'heyday'.

The club had a poor summer on the back of previous papering over the cracks, transfer windows.
The club is losing millions of pounds.
The manager is currently struggling but maybe that is to be expected.
From the outside it would appear money has put the club in its current situation.

None of which has anything to do with a bunch of asset stripping crooks, and yet that's what we keep getting feed.

I think you are misunderstanding the reason for the dissent. The reason it gets a bigger voice when things are going badly on the pitch is that it is suppressed when things are going well. It is only when the on pitch antics mirrors the nonsense off the pitch that those who think for themselves are not ridiculed and shouted down. We are all football fans of this club so we try to ignore stuff we don't like the sound of - it all starts to come out when the on pitch stuff, the more important stuff in the eyes of football fans, starts to go horribly wrong.

Whilst I didn't like the way the atmosphere of the club was changing I convinced myself that to an extent it was the price of success and kept quiet. I ignored reasons why it all fell apart with Poyet and backed Barber/Bloom for their actions; I see that as very naive now and feel that it was not just about Poyet's ego. I think that many of us felt that we shouldn't question with the money Bloom has ploughed into the club but I've always felt uneasy at this, despite the alternative if Bloom did not do what he did. I also backed Barber despite his quite obvious odiousness and arrogance as he was only doing what Bloom wanted, and Bloom had undoubtedly saved my club for me.

The question in my mind is whether a club belongs to a man who is fortunate to have the funds to invest or whether it really belongs to the fans. I believe it is the latter and the chairman is fortunate to be the custodian and has a responsibility to us fans. A naive point of view no doubt but that's how I see it.

No one is saying that the problems are the same as in the 1990's, just that we shouldn't sit quietly like a bunch of palace/Pompey fans and let things develop until that does start to become a risk.

 

[Stat Brother]

I think you are misunderstanding the reason for the dissent. The reason it gets a bigger voice when things are going badly on the pitch is that it is suppressed when things are going well. It is only when the on pitch antics mirrors the nonsense off the pitch that those who think for themselves are not ridiculed and shouted down. We are all football fans of this club so we try to ignore stuff we don't like the sound of - it all starts to come out when the on pitch stuff, the more important stuff in the eyes of football fans, starts to go horribly wrong.

Whilst I didn't like the way the atmosphere of the club was changing I convinced myself that to an extent it was the price of success and kept quiet. I ignored reasons why it all fell apart with Poyet and backed Barber/Bloom for their actions; I see that as very naive now and feel that it was not just about Poyet's ego. I think that many of us felt that we shouldn't question with the money Bloom has ploughed into the club but I've always felt uneasy at this, despite the alternative if Bloom did not do what he did. I also backed Barber despite his quite obvious odiousness and arrogance as he was only doing what Bloom wanted, and Bloom had undoubtedly saved my club for me.

The question in my mind is whether a club belongs to a man who is fortunate to have the funds to invest or whether it really belongs to the fans. I believe it is the latter and the chairman is fortunate to be the custodian and has a responsibility to us fans. A naive point of view no doubt but that's how I see it.

I don't think we are saying anything too different.
There's an awful lot you've said I agree with (and wish I'd written).

My bone of contention is 'off the pitch' nothing has changed.
The 2 B's are 'running' the club under the direction of TB.

No one is saying that the problems are the same as in the 1990's, just that we shouldn't sit quietly like a bunch of palace/Pompey fans and let things develop until that does start to become a risk.

You're not saying that, but others are, and that's disappointing.

As for other poorly run teams I fail to see the similarity and more importantly what 'we' can do.

The debt is in one man's hands and far beyond the reach of all of us combined.
We either trust Tony to do right by his investment which in turn means the club.
Or we don't.

I just don't see how we can trust Tony and his staff when we win, but call them odiousness and arrogant when we lose.

 

[Stat Brother]

Your usual patronising drivel.

Oh and sorry for writing patronising drivel.
I mean't it to be whiny, whingy drivel.

Granted that's not a good defence, but it's the best I've got.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

This is the sort of thing that needs raising with Paul Beirne by those fortunate enough to be invited to the discussion evening. Yes, we want supporters clubs to be independent. No, we don't want them run by the club. But we do want the club's support, as much as they want ours. We want a diverse number supporters clubs to meet the needs of those individuals but we do want a level of coordination and cooperation between them all. Who takes that on? Well, it shouldn't be the club but it will require someone, like a Dick Knight, Paul Samrah etc, to be prepared and big enough to take a lot of shit from some of the posters on here.

 

[stss30]

Your usual patronising drivel. You should "do lunch" with Paul Barber. The point - obviously - is that we have League One "product" for prices and a corporate ethos more like a mid table Premier League team. Something isn't working in that equation and, if we keep losing, think of what the next step will be. If our current turnover and profit is insufficent then, when we go down, there's a real chance that Tony Bloom would face a choice between bankrupting his family, calling in part of his loan or selling up. Lose every week and in three years you'll have no club. Still, at least you'll have the fascinating cycling to keep you company.

Back to the OP. Whether we need a BISA, old guard or not, is not really the question. A single supporters' group, independent of the club seems desireable on the face of it. Unfortunately the chances of that speaking with one voice are zero. We can't even get our main "singing area" stand to agree on singing the same song at the same time to back the team on the pitch. I run a small blog by myself and occasionally write for TSLR and Stand or Fall 1901. Just one small request from one person at the end of last season exposed a level of politics that had me questioning if even that was worth it. Crack the surface even a tiny bit and you'll find the fans are as riven with divides and personal agendas as I believe the club management are, and yes I include myself in that. The internet has happened. Fan sites have happened. Local supporters groups have happened (and were needed for things like coach travel). You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Nailed it. But I think the highlighted point is particularly key. People may say 'you're only moaning because we're losing a few games and not as good as we have been in the past few seasons', however there's much more to it than that. I think Brighton fans more than most can appreciate that there are highs and lows in football, but If we do get relegated we could be in serious financial trouble. We're still running at quite a sizable loss in this division at the Amex (as I understand) hence the urgency felt amongst supporters to get rid of Hyypia and try and restructure the failing recruitment system before it's too late.

 

[Lenny Rider]

Tito was not an uberfan he was the acceptable choice of the board ( Stalin ) to run Yugoslavia and we all know how that ended up, a binfest with bullets.

Thanks for the history lesson but I was actually joking.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm not convinced Barber would properly listen to a supporters group. He has his views on how the club should be run and nothing seems to sway him. At best you'll get a lengthy email explaining why "it" has to be his way.

 

[El Presidente]

I dont think the club is run by men who would listen to BISA, they have no need to cow tail to anybody. They have the money to be self sufficient with no need to ask for money etc.

Do you think they are milking the club?

 

[Beach Hut]

I'm not convinced Barber would properly listen to a supporters group. He has his views on how the club should be run and nothing seems to sway him. At best you'll get a lengthy email explaining why "it" has to be his way.

Probably correct, the only way is the Barber way so save us all another long corporate mail.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Do you think they are milking the club?

There must be an udder explanation.

 

[Questions]

It all points to comparisons to Yugoslavia after WW2, what we need is a President Tito figure, the ultimate uberfan who has both Bens Grandad's age and experience and Stat Brothers drive and intellect.

Lenny you talk like the club is close to be ripped to pieces by salivating wild dogs just waiting to spot the weakness.
It's not. We just have a shit manager who inherited shit players from a guy who cannot recruit. This was the big mistake and the break in continuity during the summer.

Nothing against a new BISA though.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Lenny you talk like the club is close to be ripped to pieces by salivating wild dogs just waiting to spot the weakness.
It's not. We just have a shit manager who inherited shit players from a guy who cannot recruit. This was the big mistake and the break in continuity during the summer.

Nothing against a new BISA though.

I think a new BISA would be a step forward. And I agree with the rest of your post.