Germany scraps tuition fees for all universities
http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsand...many-scraps-tuition-fees-for-all-universities
http://www.dazeddigital.com/artsand...many-scraps-tuition-fees-for-all-universities
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Is it "socially unjust" to charge young students for their university education?
- Thread starter Herr Tubthumper
- Start date
Chinman3000
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 1,269
No. Who else is going to pay for it? The rest of us hardworking people? No chance. Stump up or get a job.
Mellor 3 Ward 4
Well-known member
Not IMO.
Why should a kid on Minimum Wage pay towards some other young person's education who decides they want to go to University?
After all, the graduate will (in all probability) earn a lot more over the course of their working life.
Having said that, the fees here are too high, meaning a significant number of kids will probably never pay their fees back.
Too many kids going to University to do 'lesser' courses at the old polytechnics, where perhaps we should be concentrating on more vocational training?
Why should a kid on Minimum Wage pay towards some other young person's education who decides they want to go to University?
After all, the graduate will (in all probability) earn a lot more over the course of their working life.
Having said that, the fees here are too high, meaning a significant number of kids will probably never pay their fees back.
Too many kids going to University to do 'lesser' courses at the old polytechnics, where perhaps we should be concentrating on more vocational training?
That's a bit old, it happened some months ago. Germany's on the right track here, I'm encouraging my son to learn German so that, in ten years time, he can get his university education for nothing.
All the politicians currently running our country had university tuition for free, I see no reason why kids of today can't benefit in the same way that they (and I) did.
All the politicians currently running our country had university tuition for free, I see no reason why kids of today can't benefit in the same way that they (and I) did.
- Thread starter
- #5
You don't seem to value education?
- Thread starter
- #6
This. I have an issue with today's politicians getting their education for free and then pulling up the drawbridge. Seems very unfair and very I'm-alright-jack.
Nibble
New member
- Jan 3, 2007
- 19,238
It's my understanding that in England the universities have always charged for education it's just that our government used to pay for it.
The way it is now students still get it paid for at the time of education but they now leave with a mountain of debt, albeit debt they don't have to pay back until they earn over a certain threshold.
So it is arguably not especially prohibitive at the time of earning your degree.
Now of course universities have to spend untold amounts on marketing departments and staff to recruit students as they are now not only courting talented students but trying to get them to spend money. Universities now have to operate as a business. In my book that's a lose/lose situation for everyone.
I would argue that the cost of living is probably more prohibitive than university fees. Although I firmly believe the government and the taxpayer should pay for people's university education as it is an investment in all our futures. A well educated population equals a productive, innovative country that is less reliant on migrant skills. Pretty hard to argue against that whichever side of the political spectrum you hang your knickers on.
As for useless degrees that just comes down to opinion. Some would argue the more artistic degrees are useless but as Churchill himself said when being told he has to scrap the culture budget to find the war.....
"Then what the Hell are we fighting it for?!"
The way it is now students still get it paid for at the time of education but they now leave with a mountain of debt, albeit debt they don't have to pay back until they earn over a certain threshold.
So it is arguably not especially prohibitive at the time of earning your degree.
Now of course universities have to spend untold amounts on marketing departments and staff to recruit students as they are now not only courting talented students but trying to get them to spend money. Universities now have to operate as a business. In my book that's a lose/lose situation for everyone.
I would argue that the cost of living is probably more prohibitive than university fees. Although I firmly believe the government and the taxpayer should pay for people's university education as it is an investment in all our futures. A well educated population equals a productive, innovative country that is less reliant on migrant skills. Pretty hard to argue against that whichever side of the political spectrum you hang your knickers on.
As for useless degrees that just comes down to opinion. Some would argue the more artistic degrees are useless but as Churchill himself said when being told he has to scrap the culture budget to find the war.....
"Then what the Hell are we fighting it for?!"
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Chinman3000
Well-known member
- Sep 28, 2011
- 1,269
The trouble is it has been devalued by the never ending array of useless degrees on offer by universities and taken up by people who don’t want a job and just want to carry on partying for another 3 years.
I value educating to a common standard and after that if you want to go uni - expect to pay.
Where is the social unjustice in that exactly?
Lord Bracknell
On fire
The benefits of education that accrue to the whole of society are enormous. Society as a whole should be paying for this.
W.C.
New member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 4,927
It seems to me to be perfectly reasonable in a civilised country in 2015 that everyone should have access to at least one shot at higher education. It's the kind of thing I'm very happy to pay my taxes towards.
I just don't get the attitude of some people who seem to be constantly worried about where their pennies are going to, and that someone else might be getting something for free that they aren't getting. Education benefits us all, whether we take up the option of doing it or not.
I just don't get the attitude of some people who seem to be constantly worried about where their pennies are going to, and that someone else might be getting something for free that they aren't getting. Education benefits us all, whether we take up the option of doing it or not.
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beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,018
first off, im against tuition fees - i went on the marches, the unionist i was 
but when we start talking about the social justice of subbing those choosing to go to further education? very difficult to justify, unless we provide suitable three year subsidies to apprentices or those that simply go straight to full time work. when i hear people argue that its not fair, it too expensive, i think, why do you want to go? because of the perceived advantage. and if there is an advantage why do you not assign a value to that you are willing to pay?
what i would like to see is an overhaul of further education, with degrees shorter (they do not need to be three years) and grants/bursaries available for all but places substantially reduced. producing thousands of media students to work as assistant managers in Starbucks is not a productive use of either the person of the universities.
but when we start talking about the social justice of subbing those choosing to go to further education? very difficult to justify, unless we provide suitable three year subsidies to apprentices or those that simply go straight to full time work. when i hear people argue that its not fair, it too expensive, i think, why do you want to go? because of the perceived advantage. and if there is an advantage why do you not assign a value to that you are willing to pay?
what i would like to see is an overhaul of further education, with degrees shorter (they do not need to be three years) and grants/bursaries available for all but places substantially reduced. producing thousands of media students to work as assistant managers in Starbucks is not a productive use of either the person of the universities.
W.C.
New member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 4,927
and why shouldn't a BA?
It wasn't today's politicians, it was Labour's in 1998 who introduced tuition fees and then Labour in 2004 who upped them before the current government bumped them up again.
What would be the cost of free tuition for all across the UK?
It was still politicians who benefited from free education - that's the point. Doesn't matter which party it was
You could ask what's the cost of free education to Germany- a much bigger country. But the cost of free education wouldn't be that high. We already near the tipping point where the number of people not paying back their fees is not covering the cost of administering those fees
As the TES reported "45 per cent of student loans will not be repaid owing to lower-than-expected graduate earnings. The Treasury had initially forecast that this figure, known as the resource accounting and budgeting (RAB) charge, would be just 28 per cent when fees rose to £9,000 a year. If the RAB reaches 48.6 per cent, the economic cost of the 2012-13 higher education reforms will exceed the system it replaced, a report by consultants London Economics says."
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,018
i've considered this, but why would you want only those of independent means to be able to study History, Philosophy, PPE dare i say? doesn't seem a great plan. encourage science and engineering by offering larger grants for those studying them.
El Sid
Well-known member
I would rather my taxes went towards tuition fees and not health tourists.
first off, im against tuition fees - i went on the marches, the unionist i was
but when we start talking about the social justice of subbing those choosing to go to further education? very difficult to justify, unless we provide suitable three year subsidies to apprentices or those that simply go straight to full time work. when i hear people argue that its not fair, it too expensive, i think, why do you want to go? because of the perceived advantage. and if there is an advantage why do you not assign a value to that you are willing to pay?
what i would like to see is an overhaul of further education, with degrees shorter (they do not need to be three years) and grants/bursaries available for all but places substantially reduced. producing thousands of media students to work as assistant managers in Starbucks is not a productive use of either the person of the universities.
I agree with this. I do think that university tuition but there needs to be more imagination. Why are course three years? There's no need for that. Why aren't we using a combination of MOOCs and personal tuition?
I also agree that there are too many people going to university. When I was at uni, about 7% of the population went - which is far too low - but I think about 20 to 25% is a fair number
withdeanwombat
Well-known member
People who get degrees USUALLY get better, higher paid jobs, and therefore pay more tax. Then they pay more tax in the form of repayment of loans. I don't have a maths degree, but that seems to be being taxed twice. Once for having a better paid job, and once for bothering to get qualified do so.
Try to trace a Scottish ancestry, or simply move to Scotland - avoid the central belt except for days out - and get a free higher education. German could be easier to learn, though.
Try to trace a Scottish ancestry, or simply move to Scotland - avoid the central belt except for days out - and get a free higher education. German could be easier to learn, though.
The party wasn't the point (although it's an interesting side topic), but the timescale was. HT blamed today's politicians, but it was politicians from nearly 20 years ago that started this particular ball rolling.