[Albion] Is Graham Potter overrated as a Premier League manager?

[Weststander]

Exactly.

I have been trying to get this point across to the Lewis Hamilton is god brigade on the F1 thread for several years now.
If an average f1 driver had that Merc seat they would look great. If lewis had a Hass he would not touch the podium.
Merc has the backing and the people at the top to achieve his world championships and Lewis is half decent as a driver, which equals wins.

Potter is above average manager using his squad to the best of their abilities imo.
I like to think I manage my football side in similar fashion as graham.

Or ..... Mercedes set out to get THE very best driver.

 

[El Presidente]

I'm eagerly anticipating his replacement. I'm not sure who it will be, but hopefully it will be someone with a bit of desire to actually win some games!

That's me then. I'd love it if we won games.

When do I start?

 

[chaileyjem]

Our win against Liverpool was where they lacked VVD and a stack of our first teamers, other clubs went to Anfield and won at that time, including Everton for the first time in a generation.
Stains outclassed Spuds at WHL (our last win there was in the 70's or was that a draw?).
Stains have beaten Spuds 4 times in this EPL stay.
Stains have beaten Chelsea 3 times in this EPL stay.
Stains have beaten 11-man Citeh 3 times in this period.
CP have twice won at the Emptihad.
CP have beaten Chelsea 4 times in this EPL stay.
CP have 2 wins and a draw at Manure in the last 4 years.
CP have 2 wins and 2 draws against Spurs in the last 3 years.

Well Palace have been in the PL a lot longer, and Saints a bit longer but yep they've had some good results but mostly some very poor ones as have Albion. . We've beaten Man United twice, Arsenal four times, City once, Liverpool once (but several draws), drawn a few times with Chelsea, and beaten Spurs at the Amex. We;ve had games where we've outplayed all of em for either long periods or 90 mins. I'm struggling to see much of a difference.
If you want to say that last years wins v Liverpool and City shouldn't count then fine but i'm not sure why !

 

[Bold Seagull]

Fine margins I agree, but annoyingly those margins persist over several seasons (mostly).

A "You would you say that moment " coming up ...... I would rather see wins and losses, that a load of draws and losses with rare wins. Simply to experience far more often that euphoric, weekend-making, feeling from an Albion win. For me this instinct goes back to the core feeling as a young kid standing in the Goldstone, the ecstasy from seeing Albion goals and wins. Not much in this world beats it.

The only exception I make is "never lose a derby".

As when we got to the end of the Hughton period, you can end up craving a new style, same with now craving counter-attacking or a different system.

The key point here though is finishing, if you counter attack you have to have the players to finish chances because you won't get as many. You'll spend more time out of possession of the ball, and the examples of previous games you mentioned chances we would likely miss were taken. At that is a principle point for me - our failures this season, as previous is not taking just half chances, but not taking clear cut chances. That won't suddenly change if you change tactics to a counter attack, in fact it will probably get worse because you'll create less presentable chances.

The likes of these big team wins are half chances taken. We've created more half chances than the teams you mentioned against the big teams, we just aren't taking them.

So looking at Potter's reign, we've been strong in defence, we've kept possession of the ball, we've been tough to beat, we've created more than enough clear presentable chances usually more than the opposition. Ultimately for me, the failure has been finding players who don't lose their composure / heads in front of goal. We have too many of them. It really is about having less time at this level and you need the quality to deal with that fraction less time.

 

[Lower West Stander]

The reason we got rid of Hughton and brought in Potter was to take the club to the next level. We could all see that we weren't going to improve under CH.

So has Potter done this? Not yet but he has long contract so the club were obviously investing in him for the medium term.

This said, there hasn't really been any tangible improvement in our league position or form since he took over - and the recent run is worrying to say the least. Obviously his record in Sweden was good but its been a bit meh since he came back to the UK.

So, yes, I think he is a bit. If we wasn't a young (ish) English manager, I don't think he'd get the same plaudits.

 

[Machiavelli]

IMHO:

Overall across the 3 seasons, on a par with the budget handed to him.

Positives - bringing on young players, a confident passing game.
Negatives - the tactics are exposed against savvy counter-attacking teams, who set out to rope-a-dope. Also, 6 transfer windows and we still lack pace/power amongst our forwards .... but is that fault of the transfer committee?

Would he be a success on a bigger budget at say Leicester, Newcastle or Villa? I think he would.

Mostly agreed, and particularly like the rope-a-dope comment. Welbeck has both pace and power in my view. Undav seems to have plenty of the right attributes, but the step up to the PL will be his real test. On forwards, I wouldn't be surprised if we got another one in this summer, such as BBD but, then again, wouldn't be surprised if we lost one, and at an outside chance both, of Trossard and Maupay.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Maybe he should have a few better players or diffrent players but is this true ? In the last three seasons under Potter - Welbeck, Mwepu, Cucurella, Webster, Maupay, Lallana, Veltman, Trossard, White (back from a loan) are all summer signings that have gone straight into the team.

Lallana and Welbeck haven't been ever presents but they've played a lot of football over the last season or so. Far more than they get credit for. They aren't "bit part". Cucurella and Veltman are not exactly short on experience either etc.
But the question wasn't - are they any good or are there players missing- all up for debate - but has Potter been given signings that have gone straight into the first team.
Yes. He has. Plenty.
As well as youngsters that have gone out on loan etc.

A much better question would be "has Potter been given signings that suit his style of football" and the answer there would be "some but not all" for me. Examples:

- White suits his style but Duffy doesn't. White effectively replaced by Duffy.
- On the other hand Webster very much suits his style
- Decision making skills crucial to using our possession wisely. Cucurella, Welbeck, Lallana and Bissouma (defensively but not shooting) all have these. Trossard does sometimes. Mwepu for all his rave reviews doesn't. Neither do Dunk, Duffy, March or MacAllister (yet). Maupay does instinctively but not with time to think.
- No pace up front at all, no height and no one apart from Maupay instinctiveness who even looks like they can finish chances. Criminal when you play the type of football that uses possession and shots to generate pressure.
- No one at the back who can play well under the press except possibly Lamptey and Cucurella, putting inevitable pressure on Sanchez, whose long passing is excellent but who does not, and never will, have the decision making and first touch of a Man City player.

 

[Machiavelli]

I am still a big fan. I like his footballing philosophy and his inclusive approach to the whole squad.

I don't like an Amex crowd that has turned, they usually end up getting their own way.
I don't like recent results or the drab football of late, but I think this is a squad form thing, which can be turned around.

Defensively injuries to Dunk and Webster, the loss of Burn have had a big impact. Dunk looks like he still is not quite at his best. Duffy and Veltman are also impacted by chopping and changing line ups.

Younger players have had to take on too much responsibility - Sanchez doesn't need to mess about with the ball if players play him the right pass and make themselves available. Lamptey I think has played too much football coming back from injury. Cucurella who is still my player of the season, has started to make errors, ironically when Moder has been rested or played out of position.

Midfield injuries - Lallana has a huge influence on possession often directing players around him, Mwepu's injury has ben unfortunate as he was starting to make a real impression on games.

Bissouma deserves his own category. I think he is still carrying the court case in his head. I know plenty of people just think he wants out.

Trossard needs to find some form, he hasn't really warranted a place in the starting X1 for months, in my opinion.

This time last season I was totally pissed off with Maupay. This season his attitude has been excellent and his effort immense. I really hope they can create some chances for him tomorrow.

Great post.

 

[Weststander]

Well Palace have been in the PL a lot longer, and Saints a bit longer but yep they've had some good results but mostly some very poor ones as have Albion. . We've beaten Man United twice, Arsenal four times, City once, Liverpool once (but several draws), drawn a few times with Chelsea, and beaten Spurs at the Amex. We;ve had games where we've outplayed all of em for either long periods or 90 mins. I'm struggling to see much of a difference.
If you want to say that last years wins v Liverpool and City shouldn't count then fine but i'm not sure why !

Call me mercenary, but I'm really not interested in that bit.

It goes with the "Well, we played well for 45 or 60 minutes, hit the post, then cruelly got robbed on the counter".

Pro sport is about winning. No one used to talk in terms of "we lost again, but wasn't our approach play in the second half exquisite". In 50 years of watching football and loving a load of other sports, I've only ever seen that chatter on nsc since August 2019.


I admit that if that was true in a number of games, but in other games there was a clear upwards trajectory of wins and progress, then all would be fine.

But there isn't.

Supporters are rocking up at the Amex and months trundle by without wins, home goals a distant memory.

 

[Peteinblack]

Call me mercenary, but I'm really not interested in that bit.

It goes with the "Well, we played well for 45 or 60 minutes, hit the post, then cruelly got robbed on the counter".

Pro sport is about winning. No one used to talk in terms of "we lost again, but wasn't our approach play in the second half exquisite". In 50 years of watching football and loving a load of other sports, I've only ever seen that chatter on nsc since August 2019.


I admit that if that was true in a number of games, but in other games there was a clear upwards trajectory of wins and progress, then all would be fine.

But there isn't.

Supporters are rocking up at the Amex and months trundle by without wins, home goals a distant memory.

Agree.

I've lost count of how many games we've enjoyed 60-70-% possession under Potter, but still drawn or lost.

The two main problems seem to be that:

a) much of the possession and passing is in our own half, sideways, or back to the goalie, and on a few occasions, passes have been sloppy, so that they've been intercepted and provided an opportunity for our opponents to attack and score.

b) When we do break-out of our own half and launch an attack, our forwards take too long - one touch too many - trying to line-up the perfect shot, by which time the opponent's defenders have regrouped and closed us down or forced us out wide, away from their goal. Time after time, our 'attacks' predictably fizzle out.

And this will be followed by a typical Potter post-match interview saying how good we were, how much courage the players showed, how much character and personality the lads displayed, to the extent that I sometimes wonder if he's watched a different game to the rest of us!

 

[usernamed]

Potter is a good coach, who hasn’t yet discovered a way of getting consistent performances out of all of his players on the same day. If he were to leave for a “big” club, then he would be sacked after (at most) 2 seasons through lack of silverware and lack of consistency of performance.

On the day that GP completes two back to back seasons of us having a top ten finish, big clubs will correctly be in for him. Before that, and they might come in for him, but it will end in tears all round.

 

[chaileyjem]

Call me mercenary, but I'm really not interested in that bit.

It goes with the "Well, we played well for 45 or 60 minutes, hit the post, then cruelly got robbed on the counter".

I'm really not either but to you included "outplaying" in your examples of Saints and Palace so thats why i referenced it.
I'm still not convinced that Saints and Palace have a better record than us against the top 6 in recent years but fine if you think we have. . We haven't lost 9-0 against any of em for starters.

 

[portslade seagull]

Lallana and Welbeck haven't been ever presents but they've played a lot of football over the last season or so. Far more than they get credit for. They aren't "bit part". Cucurella and Veltman are not exactly short on experience either etc.
But the question wasn't - are they any good or are there players missing- all up for debate - but has Potter been given signings that have gone straight into the first team.
Yes. He has. Plenty.
As well as youngsters that have gone out on loan etc.

Yep he has been given players that have dropped straight into the team out of necessity. They have taken half a season or more in most cases to get up to the pace of the PL. We have loads of potential out on loan but its anybody's guess if they will make the mark.

 

[darkwolf666]

Potter is a good coach, who hasn’t yet discovered a way of getting consistent performances out of all of his players on the same day. If he were to leave for a “big” club, then he would be sacked after (at most) 2 seasons through lack of silverware and lack of consistency of performance.

On the day that GP completes two back to back seasons of us having a top ten finish, big clubs will correctly be in for him. Before that, and they might come in for him, but it will end in tears all round.

What's that old saying about making a purse out of a sow's ear?

Maybe Potter is good enough, but simply the players aren't...!

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

You’re only as good as the tools you get to work with.

 

[Justice]

You’re only as good as the tools you have to work with.

Nuno (Spurs) Lampard (Chelsea) suggests not in football. Both employed vastly better coaches and the results prove it. All this your mum can coach if the players are good enough is utter horse shit.

 

[Worried Man Blues]

He was overrated by some, not so much now. I am happy with him as our manager and hope with canny investment, from our expected sales, we will become a mid table club before he moves on and probably up.

 

[Jeremiah]

Is Graham Potter overrated as a Premier League manager?

Yes. Mainly by people on here.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Is Graham Potter overrated as a Premier League manager?

Yes. Mainly by people on here.

And now all hurriedly scurrying to re-evaluate their position, because FourFourTwo just confirmed the emperor is pretty much buck nekkid

 

[Weststander]

And now all hurriedly scurrying to re-evaluate their position, because FourFourTwo just confirmed the emperor is pretty much buck nekkid

There's certainly been some shifting of tectonic plates. Until very recently: "both the squad and Potter are amazing, pinch yourself in living the EPL dream, anyone questioning that is a traitor".

Now, a sea of folk blaming squad quality. [They might be correct].