[Albion] Is Graham Potter overrated as a Premier League manager?

[portslade seagull]

Maybe he should have a few better players or diffrent players but is this true ? In the last three seasons under Potter - Welbeck, Mwepu, Cucurella, Webster, Maupay, Lallana, Veltman, Trossard, White (back from a loan) are all summer signings that have gone straight into the team.

And apart from two bit part sick note players we try to nurture through the season there is a big lack of previous PL experience there. Trying to integrate these new players from other leagues takes 2 seasons

 

[Weststander]

The spine of the team has been weakened by Webster’s absence and the lack of a premier league centre forward. So Potter is on a hiding to nothing. Bissouma is arguably the best midfielder and who knows where his head is at the moment. Our goalie has the occasional ‘mare. None of this is Potter’s fault. Most of the signings seem to be investments in the future, whether for development and sale, or perhaps getting in the first team to make up the numbers.
Only the rich will survive as they can afford the decent forwards required for success and build their teams and play around them.
I think we’ll just get the pretty football and survive. That is why for clubs like Norwich the yo-yo effect is quite attractive.

I disagree with that bit. Over the best part of a decade, more often than not, Stains and CP have clocked up wins, won at the big spenders (when the home team didn't have an injury crisis) and have recruited dangerous forwards.

Shows what can be done with a different to ours transfer approach.

Not always playing the jam in a few seasons time approach.

Ticking the [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] requirement that football's about winning games.

 

[Justice]

Useless, a fact and tell me if I’m lying you can practically predict the outcome of every Potter game and how it’s going to play out plays right into the other teams hands. Not good enough for this level.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Bilic, Bielsa, Chris Wilder, Scott Parker, Farke, Watford's last 100 managers, Lampard given the way things are going.
None have managed what Potter has done - keep their club in the premier league for two , probably three seasons and keep their jobs.
Not good enough for many on these types of threads but a feat nonetheless.

But the overrated comment was about him being regarded as the best English coach / manager.

Roy Hodgson kept Palace up for more seasons than that, finishing above us. Once with a squad that had lost their first seven games and once with last seasons aging, out of contract squad. Dyche has done it. Smeddie has done it.

 

[herecomesaregular]

I have to say overrated, as for the last few months I always bet on an Albion loss or draw or <1.5 Albion goals. Bad fan but we are just so predictable and dull nowadays.

 

[southstandandy]

I thinks he's done ok but can't really take us any further, as neither could anyone else without serious investment which we can't afford.

I can see why some would call for a change, especially if the Norwich result goes tits up and we then lose the next 3 away games, but who else is there that could really take us to the next step with our current group of players and within the financial parameters we live in?

Sadly, bumbling around the bottom 3rd of the Prem, winning an average of 1 game a month, is about as much I hope for and just staying up each season seems a relatively decent achievement.

 

[chaileyjem]

But the overrated comment was about him being regarded as the best English coach / manager.

Roy Hodgson kept Palace up for more seasons than that, finishing above us. Once with a squad that had lost their first seven games and once with last seasons aging, out of contract squad. Dyche has done it. Smeddie has done it.

And Potter has done it. The Four Four Two piece also says this "Since he left Ostersunds, it is hard to identify one feat, one season-long accomplishment, that stands out" which for some reason swings entirely the other way. Keeping teams in the PL for an extended period is an achievement and he deserves credit for that. And there are very few English coaches in the PL.
Dyche is well on his way to taking Burnley down twice. Thats fine. He's taken Burnley to the top ten (once) and kept them up for 5/6 seasons. He's a good manager/coach too.

 

[chaileyjem]

I disagree with that bit. Over the best part of a decade, more often than not, Stains and CP have clocked up wins, won at the big spenders .

Do Palace or Saints really have a much better record v Arsenal, Chelsea , Man City, Liverpool, Spurs than Albion ?
(ie: a few decent results , a few wins but mostly defeats)

 

[CheeseRolls]

I am still a big fan. I like his footballing philosophy and his inclusive approach to the whole squad.

I don't like an Amex crowd that has turned, they usually end up getting their own way.
I don't like recent results or the drab football of late, but I think this is a squad form thing, which can be turned around.

Defensively injuries to Dunk and Webster, the loss of Burn have had a big impact. Dunk looks like he still is not quite at his best. Duffy and Veltman are also impacted by chopping and changing line ups.

Younger players have had to take on too much responsibility - Sanchez doesn't need to mess about with the ball if players play him the right pass and make themselves available. Lamptey I think has played too much football coming back from injury. Cucurella who is still my player of the season, has started to make errors, ironically when Moder has been rested or played out of position.

Midfield injuries - Lallana has a huge influence on possession often directing players around him, Mwepu's injury has ben unfortunate as he was starting to make a real impression on games.

Bissouma deserves his own category. I think he is still carrying the court case in his head. I know plenty of people just think he wants out.

Trossard needs to find some form, he hasn't really warranted a place in the starting X1 for months, in my opinion.

This time last season I was totally pissed off with Maupay. This season his attitude has been excellent and his effort immense. I really hope they can create some chances for him tomorrow.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What really is overrated is the power people think a manager/coach has and truly a testimony to how ****ed up the world is. No wonder that CEOs earn 759 times (in the UK but probably similar in most countries) more than the average worker if people truly believe that the CEO is 759 more important than those actually carrying out the hard work.

If your mum (whoever you are and regardless if she is dead or alive) took over as the coach of Manchester City they'd still jog into a top 4 position with the players they have, and if your mum was sacked from Watford and replaced by Pep Guardiola they'd still be miles off a top 10 position.

I agree with you.

Which makes your reason for being on NSC all that more peculiar. I don't object, I should add

 

[Weststander]

Do Palace or Saints really have a much better record v Arsenal, Chelsea , Man City, Liverpool, Spurs , City than Albion ?
(ie: a few decent results , a few wins but mostly defeats)

Our win against Liverpool was where they lacked VVD and a stack of our first teamers, other clubs went to Anfield and won at that time, including Everton for the first time in a generation.
Stains outclassed Spuds at WHL (our last win there was in the 70's or was that a draw?).
Stains have beaten Spuds 4 times in this EPL stay.
Stains have beaten Chelsea 3 times in this EPL stay.
Stains have beaten 11-man Citeh 3 times in this period.
CP have twice won at the Emptihad.
CP have beaten Chelsea 4 times in this EPL stay.
CP have 2 wins and a draw at Manure in the last 4 years.
CP have 2 wins and 2 draws against Spurs in the last 3 years.

The underlying reason, when we struggle to pull these results off against 11 first teamers?

I really believe that it's due to a clever counter attacking game. It doesn't always come off against mega spenders, but gives a fighting chance.

Whoever our next coach is, assuming Potter will never change, I wouldn't mind seeing counter attacking football.

That's how Everton and Villa won with ease at The Amex. It was effective and despite misconceptions about the beautiful game, it was pleasing on the eye.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I disagree with that bit. Over the best part of a decade, more often than not, Stains and CP have clocked up wins, won at the big spenders (when the home team didn't have an injury crisis) and have recruited dangerous forwards.

Shows what can be done with a different to ours transfer approach.

Not always playing the jam in a few seasons time approach.

Ticking the [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] requirement that football's about winning games.

Equally though, we've lost less games under Potter than Southampton, Villa, Palace, Everton over the period he's been in charge. Now I know we'd all rather that the subsequent larger draw column was wins, as I'm sure the manager would, but we're really haven't been that far behind those teams and aren't right now either.

 

[Commander]

I still find it so odd how football fans forget that during a good run you will soon go on a bad run, and during a bad run, you will soon go on a good run. It really is truly bizarre. Unless Potter gets sacked, which is highly unlikely, at some point relatively soon we will win a few games and it will be back to how amazing he is again. I find it astonishing how people just never seem to learn, and how utterly thick so many football fans are. I'd love to see a club owned by the fans who get to make the big decisions. It would be hilarious.

Potter is a very good, relatively young and inexperienced manager doing a decent job. He has the potential to become a real top class coach, but that will take a few more years and could go either way. Which is exactly the sort of manager we want at our level. When he goes, we will replace him with a similar prospect.

It would be nice if he could work out how to win at home soon (tomorrow, ideally). Although I genuinely think the fans should take a portion of that responsibility / blame as well.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

What really is overrated is the power people think a manager/coach has and truly a testimony to how ****ed up the world is. No wonder Hi earn 759 times (in the UK but probably similar in most countries) more than the average worker if people truly believe that the CEO is 759 more important than those actually carrying out the hard work.

If your mum (whoever you are and regardless if she is dead or alive) took over as the coach of Manchester City they'd still jog into a top 4 positio n with thee players they have, and if your mum was sacked from Watford and replaced by Pep Guardiola they'd still be miles off a top 10 position.

Exactly.

I have been trying to get this point across to the Lewis Hamilton is god brigade on the F1 thread for several years now.
If an average f1 driver had that Merc seat they would look great. If lewis had a Hass he would not touch the podium.
Merc has the backing and the people at the top to achieve his world championships and Lewis is half decent as a driver, which equals wins.

Potter is above average manager using his squad to the best of their abilities imo.
I like to think I manage my football side in similar fashion as graham.

 

[Frankworthington]

Yes

 

[Dunk&Disorderly]

Any sites offering odds for Graham Potter to be top 6 manager in x amount of years? Or similar?

 

[Weststander]

Equally though, we've lost less games under Potter than Southampton, Villa, Palace, Everton over the period he's been in charge. Now I know we'd all rather that the subsequent larger draw column was wins, as I'm sure the manager would, but we're really haven't been that far behind those teams and aren't right now either.

Fine margins I agree, but annoyingly those margins persist over several seasons (mostly).

A "You would you say that moment " coming up ...... I would rather see wins and losses, that a load of draws and losses with rare wins. Simply to experience far more often that euphoric, weekend-making, feeling from an Albion win. For me this instinct goes back to the core feeling as a young kid standing in the Goldstone, the ecstasy from seeing Albion goals and wins. Not much in this world beats it.

The only exception I make is "never lose a derby".

 

[Spiros]

The comparison in that article made to Allardyce at Bolton and Hodgson at Fulham are blatantly unfair. At the time each had money of some sort thrown at the squad, especially in the attacking department. Potter has had relatively little to work with. The reason we were doing so well earlier on is that we had all of our best players fit and firing. Losing Webster was a blow in particular but also losing Dunk and Mwepu didn't help, nor did Burn going just as we were getting thin at the back. It's really knocked our best way of playing and would have given most managers a headache IMHO

 

[TottonSeagull]

Good article by 4-4-2 standards. Definitely covers some themes from here.

What I've been saying for what feels like forever:

"Now they are 13th and could conceivably be 15th by the time they face Southampton on 24 April. Which, as they have finished 15th and 16th in two previous campaigns under Potter, scarcely screams progress."

And what I've repeatedly mentioned along with many, many others this season:

"But he is far better at drawing games than winning them. Potter could secure a rare hat-trick by sharing the points the most times in three successive seasons but his Premier League win percentage stands at just 23.5."

But, to be fair, [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] 's "return to the mean":

"There are several factors worth considering. Losing a mere four in 24 felt artificially good; perhaps it was inevitable some setbacks would follow."

And some of Swanny and Icy's positives:

"Potter’s prowess is apparent in other respects. He improves players. Brighton banked £50 million for Ben White in part due to his coaching. Without it, perhaps Dan Burn would not have been priced at £13 million."

"There is a case for arguing that results are an inevitable consequence of the process and much Potter does is evidently admirable"

All of this together is why the Potter threads on here are so divisive. As a results-first fan who wants to see us perform and score in home games I do believe he is vastly overrated. But you could equally take the last two quotes above and make a case for him moving on to a better club when he eventually leaves.

Very good post and really sums GP up for me!

 

[chaileyjem]

And apart from two bit part sick note players we try to nurture through the season there is a big lack of previous PL experience there. Trying to integrate these new players from other leagues takes 2 seasons

Lallana and Welbeck haven't been ever presents but they've played a lot of football over the last season or so. Far more than they get credit for. They aren't "bit part". Cucurella and Veltman are not exactly short on experience either etc.
But the question wasn't - are they any good or are there players missing- all up for debate - but has Potter been given signings that have gone straight into the first team.
Yes. He has. Plenty.
As well as youngsters that have gone out on loan etc.