[Politics] Is democracy in crisis?

[BadFish]

I think that calling someone stupid is counter-productive and wrong, but it is clear that some voters are better informed than others.

It is also clear that if people choose to vote purely on "it's the economy stupid" and only on matters that effect them directly, without considering the environment, education, foreign policy, justice etc then the world really is f***ed.

Trump made it sound like the USA is a nation where everyone is on the breadline, nobody has any money and where inflation is rampant. There is some of that but not to the extent you'd believe.

Trump's personal deficiencies are bad enough, as are some of his extreme ideas, but as bad as anything is the idea he will "drill baby drill" and "frack frack frack" his way to ecological armageddon.

He's a f*cking dinosaur on the environment, but US voters don't seem to care. The US economy was doing OK and certainly not so bad as to risk economic, military and environmental chaos. They want to look inwards, not outwards, and that's dangerous for the rest of us.

I agree about calling people stupid but from where I sit they have just made a stupid decison. A little reading suggests that the main issues people voted on in the US were democracy and the economy.

In terms of democracy they have voted for someone who tired to inturrupt the transfer of power and encourage a riiot/coup/attack on the capitol. Surely this is a bit daft.

In terms of the economy, his suggest policies of tarrifs on good from abroad, deporting illegal immigrants and spending are pretty likely to f*** it up.

Add to that his personal misdemeanours, felons, the fact that many people who have worked closely with him have warned of his danger and his inability to finish a coherent sentence are we really supposed to look at th whole situation and think, yep that looks like a good intelligent choice.

The evidence may end up showing that he was a brilliant choice, as he reenergises Flint and all those other other places doing it hard, stops the immigrants eating people's pets, ends the war in Ukraine and puts Outin back in his box and ushers in a golden age for America. At this point I will wipe the egg off my face and applaud the intelligent choice by the US electorate and marvel at their ability to see things better than me.

 

[Weststander]

I think that calling someone stupid is counter-productive and wrong, but it is clear that some voters are better informed than others.

It is also clear that if people choose to vote purely on "it's the economy stupid"

and only on matters that effect them directly, without considering the environment, education, foreign policy, justice etc then the world really is f***ed.

Trump made it sound like the USA is a nation where everyone is on the breadline, nobody has any money and where inflation is rampant. There is some of that but not to the extent you'd believe.

Trump's personal deficiencies are bad enough, as are some of his extreme ideas, but as bad as anything is the idea he will "drill baby drill" and "frack frack frack" his way to ecological armageddon.

He's a f*cking dinosaur on the environment, but US voters don't seem to care. The US economy was doing OK and certainly not so bad as to risk economic, military and environmental chaos. They want to look inwards, not outwards, and that's dangerous for the rest of us.

“Democracy in crisis” or election results you‘re gutted about? An awful result for me too for many reasons, but America has spoken.

Another case of little groups of UK chattering classes (“All my family and friends agree with me”, “Ive never met a Brexiteer”, ”In the pub my mates agreed with me that withdrawal of WFP for almost all is fair” …. missing the sentiment out there, in the UK, EU and US people are shifting to the left and right. Cuts both ways, some old keyboard warriors in Sussex cowardly condone violence against football visitors in Amsterdam.

Weird, unpleasant times.

 

[jcdenton08]

I agree about calling people stupid but from where I sit they have just made a stupid decison. A little reading suggests that the main issues people voted on in the US were democracy and the economy.

In terms of democracy they have voted for someone who tired to inturrupt the transfer of power and encourage a riiot/coup/attack on the capitol. Surely this is a bit daft.

In terms of the economy, his suggest policies of tarrifs on good from abroad, deporting illegal immigrants and spending are pretty likely to f*** it up.

Add to that his personal misdemeanours, felons, the fact that many people who have worked closely with him have warned of his danger and his inability to finish a coherent sentence are we really supposed to look at th whole situation and think, yep that looks like a good intelligent choice.

The evidence may end up showing that he was a brilliant choice, as he reenergises Flint and all those other other places doing it hard, stops the immigrants eating people's pets, ends the war in Ukraine and puts Outin back in his box and ushers in a golden age for America. At this point I will wipe the egg off my face and applaud the intelligent choice by the US electorate and marvel at their ability to see things better than me.

The benefits that Americans might possibly reap are similar to those in 2016. Namely a stronger economy. (“It’s the economy, stupid”).

This isn’t going to make headlines internationally, but citizens might feel it in their pocket, in the grocery stores, at the gas pumps.

The fact is Trump won votes because millions of people were, factually, financially better off under Trump than they were under Biden.

These same millions of people don’t give a shit about Ukraine/Russia, they don’t give a shit about Trump’s legal issues (it’s either a conspiracy to keep their guy down, or they simply don’t care - to some, he shows he’s a real man) and are generally pro-life, etc. City-slick in’ social issues which do not affect them do not matter to them.

But the main thing is the economy, stupid. Farmers in Arkansas don’t give a flying bollock about political intricacies and “woke shit”, they want more money in their pocket, their gun rights protected and to feel listened to.

 

[wellquickwoody]

I have not read the whole thread so this may already have been covered.

Does anyone else find it creepy that the worlds richest person and owner of an influential social media brand has joined forces with a bullying, self centred right wing ’politician’ to run the biggest economy on the planet? All a bit ‘James Bond’ and Spectre like?

 

[Weststander]

I have not read the whole thread so this may already have been covered.

Does anyone else find it creepy that the worlds richest person and owner of an influential social media brand has joined forces with a bullying, self centred right wing ’politician’ to run the biggest economy on the planet? All a bit ‘James Bond’ and Spectre like?

One of the best week’s of your life, you can admit it!

 

[Bry Nylon]

Does anyone else find it creepy that the worlds richest person and owner of an influential social media brand has joined forces with a bullying, self centred right wing ’politician’ to run the biggest economy on the planet?

Keep @Bozza outta yer goddamn mouth

 

[Guinness Boy]

I have not read the whole thread so this may already have been covered.

Does anyone else find it creepy that the worlds richest person and owner of an influential social media brand has joined forces with a bullying, self centred right wing ’politician’ to run the biggest economy on the planet? All a bit ‘James Bond’ and Spectre like?

I’ve said Musk is a Bond villain for a good long time.

Taking over the media, launching space missions, backing fascists while dressed in a natty t-shirt? Fleming would have rejected it as hackneyed.

I’m 53 now and I mostly don’t give a f*ck about anything but I’m genuinely worried for my kids.

 

[BadFish]

The benefits that Americans might possibly reap are similar to those in 2016. Namely a stronger economy. (“It’s the economy, stupid”).

This isn’t going to make headlines internationally, but citizens might feel it in their pocket, in the grocery stores, at the gas pumps.

The fact is Trump won votes because millions of people were, factually, financially better off under Trump than they were under Biden.

These same millions of people don’t give a shit about Ukraine/Russia, they don’t give a shit about Trump’s legal issues (it’s either a conspiracy to keep their guy down, or they simply don’t care - to some, he shows he’s a real man) and are generally pro-life, etc. City-slick in’ social issues which do not affect them do not matter to them.

But the main thing is the economy, stupid. Farmers in Arkansas don’t give a flying bollock about political intricacies and “woke shit”, they want more money in their pocket, their gun rights protected and to feel listened to.

All true, I wonder if Trump's policies are going to deliver what they want? My understanding of economic matters are limited (I am pretty stupid when it comes to such things) but as I have mentioned they don't seem to be the best ideas.

Only time will tell I guess.

 

[jcdenton08]

All true, I wonder if Trump's policies are going to deliver what they want? My understanding of economic matters are limited (I am pretty stupid when it comes to such things) but as I have mentioned they don't seem to be the best ideas.

Only time will tell I guess.

Yep, it’s very possible it goes tits up for him. Time will tell and Americans will have to live with their choice. What’s clear is they weren’t happy with Biden’s management of the economy.

 

[Pavilionaire]

“Democracy in crisis” or election results you‘re gutted about? An awful result for me too for many reasons, but America has spoken.

Another case of little groups of UK chattering classes (“All my family and friends agree with me”, “Ive never met a Brexiteer”, ”In the pub my mates agreed with me that withdrawal of WFP for almost all is fair” …. missing the sentiment out there, in the UK, EU and US people are shifting to the left and right. Cuts both ways, some old keyboard warriors in Sussex cowardly condone violence against football visitors in Amsterdam.

Weird, unpleasant times.

I'm 56. Election results ebb and flow, there is disappointment and delight in equal measure. I'm gutted about Trump, pleased about Labour, but that's not the point.

My point here is about truth, honesty, expectation, manipulation of the truth, perception, lies and fantasy. It's about the innate tendency in society to look inwards, not outwards. And the more people look inwards, the more they will resent or fear the rest of society and that is good news for extremists.

It's about election campaigns where parties are too afraid to speak the truth or spell out the reality because it is unpopular or unpalatable, so they spin an artificial narrative or they just keep quiet.

And it's about social media, foreign interference and the likes of Elon Musk controlling outlets, labelling real news as 'fake news' so people don't know what is real and what isn't.

Voters deserve better. But I don't think voters are informed enough, they don't care enough and they don't challenge their politicians or their media. Why is political debate and narrative still shaped by Fleet Street headlines when only the old still buy newspapers?

 

[BadFish]

I'm 56. Election results ebb and flow, there is disappointment and delight in equal measure. I'm gutted about Trump, pleased about Labour, but that's not the point.

My point here is about truth, honesty, expectation, manipulation of the truth, perception, lies and fantasy. It's about the innate tendency in society to look inwards, not outwards. And the more people look inwards, the more they will resent or fear the rest of society and that is good news for extremists.

It's about election campaigns where parties are too afraid to speak the truth or spell out the reality because it is unpopular or unpalatable, so they spin an artificial narrative or they just keep quiet.

And it's about social media, foreign interference and the likes of Elon Musk controlling outlets, labelling real news as 'fake news' so people don't know what is real and what isn't.

Voters deserve better. But I don't think voters are informed enough, they don't care enough and they don't challenge their politicians or their media. Why is political debate and narrative still shaped by Fleet Street headlines when only the old still buy newspapers?

I agree, to dismiss concerns as 'you lost, get over it' really ignores the many concerns about the current political landscape expressed in this thread. It also ignore the fact that most of us didbt really have a dog in the race, interest in this election is about how bastardised the whole thing has become.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Nothing for her in doors?

Oh 2 gas masks

 

[Weststander]

I'm 56. Election results ebb and flow, there is disappointment and delight in equal measure. I'm gutted about Trump, pleased about Labour, but that's not the point.

My point here is about truth, honesty, expectation, manipulation of the truth, perception, lies and fantasy. It's about the innate tendency in society to look inwards, not outwards. And the more people look inwards, the more they will resent or fear the rest of society and that is good news for extremists.

It's about election campaigns where parties are too afraid to speak the truth or spell out the reality because it is unpopular or unpalatable, so they spin an artificial narrative or they just keep quiet.

And it's about social media, foreign interference and the likes of Elon Musk controlling outlets, labelling real news as 'fake news' so people don't know what is real and what isn't.

Voters deserve better. But I don't think voters are informed enough, they don't care enough and they don't challenge their politicians or their media. Why is political debate and narrative still shaped by Fleet Street headlines when only the old still buy newspapers?

I’m gloomy about it all, I don’t think you catastrophised. There’s so much anger out there, I’m talking beyond the UK and US as well.

One difference is that I don’t think of it as purely a right wing thing, whereas your posts portray that.

I also hear zealots from the left / pro Islam / anti the West, often minorities, talking in absolute terms as if they’re the all seeing eye. Angry Muslims from the US and UK this week almost reveling in Harris’s defeat because she believes in Israel existing. WTF …. Trump will give Islamists hell. Everything these people say about anything is unsmiling, unpersuasive, a turn off. JK Rowling faces death threats for being pro biological female rights. These are not fringe issues, people are joining these often hateful zealots, or react and find a home with Trump, Reform or Robinson.

 

[Machiavelli]

I think that calling someone stupid is counter-productive and wrong, but it is clear that some voters are better informed than others.

It is also clear that if people choose to vote purely on "it's the economy stupid" and only on matters that effect them directly, without considering the environment, education, foreign policy, justice etc then the world really is f***ed.

Trump made it sound like the USA is a nation where everyone is on the breadline, nobody has any money and where inflation is rampant. There is some of that but not to the extent you'd believe.

Trump's personal deficiencies are bad enough, as are some of his extreme ideas, but as bad as anything is the idea he will "drill baby drill" and "frack frack frack" his way to ecological armageddon.

He's a f*cking dinosaur on the environment, but US voters don't seem to care. The US economy was doing OK and certainly not so bad as to risk economic, military and environmental chaos. They want to look inwards, not outwards, and that's dangerous for the rest of us.

I don't disagree with any of that at all, and I think I've made my credentials on here abundantly clear as to the kind of future I'm fighting for. But I'm now 55 and -- generalising enormously -- since as a 10yo, economic inequality (and all that comes with that -- abandoned communities, ghost towns, an economy focused around London and the south-east with so much of the rest left to rot: all as a result of 'there's no such thing as society', 'get on your bike', etc) has been left to rip, the financial sector to do what it wants and to be valorised as 'masters of the universe', and then it all comes crashing down overnight, and then after all those privatised gains the losses are socialised.

And then on comes round two, which is that all of this is the fault of migrants, feminism, the trans community, 'the green new sham', etc. The two things are connected and, to repeat, the left haven't exactly helped themselves because they still lack a vision and a policy framework around which sufficient can mobilise around. Until that happens to paraphrase GP 'we are where we are'.

Back to your original question, yes, it is, and has been for a while. Democracy isn't something static, we didn't reach 'the end of history' when adults were granted the vote. That (electoral-representative) model has been disintegrating for the very reason that, once established, those that love a hierarchy and inequality will go about doing what's 'natural' and generate new hierarchies and inequalities, and it's up to democracy to re-establish itself.

There isn't a clear idea about how to do this, so experimentation is all we have. Citizens assemblies is one route out. I still think that protest needs to be protected, but even that looks far from obvious currently, given that the far right are mobilising on the streets. I'd say the same about those that insist upon balance and point the finger at the 'far left' if they were engaging in violence against communities, but it's far from clear that they are. Beyond that, I don't really have any proposals.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Oh 2 gas masks

Wind problem?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

1. Social media. When even thick as sh1t Le Tissier has a load of political followers, the world is in trouble. Complete lies by all and sundry spread like wildfire, experts/scientists ignored.
2. Mass migration. Who would’ve thought 15 years ago that Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Sweden and the Netherlands would have incredibly popular parties from the far right or getting on for that? No one I’d suggest. It’s a reaction. Not from me though. Tyndall and Webster in the 70’s were obscure fringe characters, in 2024 Tommy Robinson, Tate, Farage have huge followings.

Mmmmm....got 2-3 K votes in Hove back in the day.

I remember chatting to an 'old' (40s) woman at a bust stop on Portland road in the 70s.

"I'm voting nation front because they back Britain*"



*Like to dress up as Nazis and fixate over blond school boys, more like.

 

[Greenbag50]

I’ve said Musk is a Bond villain for a good long time.

Taking over the media, launching space missions, backing fascists while dressed in a natty t-shirt? Fleming would have rejected it as hackneyed.

I’m 53 now and I mostly don’t give a f*ck about anything but I’m genuinely worried for my kids.

Taking over the media?
Come on grow up FFS…..
if a guy can inspire to build the worlds best EV company, plus grab a 10 storey high space craft with chopsticks, he is doing better than average

 

[Greenbag50]

The Americans voted for who they wanted to be their President.
It must have been better than what they had and the alternative they had on offer and remember, he has been there before and they have experienced that.
Don’t like it? Unlucky; they don’t care and voted for what they wanted.
Let’s see what he does, not what he says, very different things

 

[Greenbag50]

The benefits that Americans might possibly reap are similar to those in 2016. Namely a stronger economy. (“It’s the economy, stupid”).

This isn’t going to make headlines internationally, but citizens might feel it in their pocket, in the grocery stores, at the gas pumps.

The fact is Trump won votes because millions of people were, factually, financially better off under Trump than they were under Biden.

These same millions of people don’t give a shit about Ukraine/Russia, they don’t give a shit about Trump’s legal issues (it’s either a conspiracy to keep their guy down, or they simply don’t care - to some, he shows he’s a real man) and are generally pro-life, etc. City-slick in’ social issues which do not affect them do not matter to them.

But the main thing is the economy, stupid. Farmers in Arkansas don’t give a flying bollock about political intricacies and “woke shit”, they want more money in their pocket, their gun rights protected and to feel listened to.

Bang on….so the OP post of is democracy in crisis, is in fact the opposite.
Democracy is in fact alive and kicking.
It is the will of the people

 

[Greenbag50]

I'm leaving party politics and my personal opinions aside when I post this, but it seems as though on either side of the Atlantic there is a widening gap between what politicians say in their election campaigning, and what they deliver when in power.

There was a time when you knew what Tory and Labour, Republican and Democrat stood for. They maintained core principles, but now those have become blurred and inconsistent.

We are told the US electorate cared most about the economy so elected Trump, rejecting some pretty good numbers in the context of the G20 re growth, unemployment, interest rates coming down. US voters believe Trump, yet if we take Trump at his word we know tariffs, lower taxes and plans for mass deportations will all be inflationary and interest rates will have to rise as a result. This will make things worse, not better, for the average US citizen.

He won't end the war in Ukraine or the Israel - Arab conflict in a matter of days, he won't end inflation, just like he didn't build a walls and make the Mexicans pay for it.

Similarly, Boris did not "Get Brexit Done" or "Take Back Control", Cameron stayed quiet in the 2010 campaign then immediately foisted austerity upon us, Lib Dems promised an end to tuition fees but did a 180, Labour stayed deliberately quiet in the 2024 campaign, then borrowed shitloads of cash and foisted huge NI increases on employers and higher tuition fees on the students that just voted for them. This disconnect between words and actions goes across the political spectrum.

We also seem to get every incoming government blaming the previous government, thus excusing all sorts of draconian action immediately they seize power.

And we just know Trump is going to get away without a custodial sentence despite all of his various crimes and misdemeanours, in the same way we know the Johnson government will get away with wasting billions and billions on dodgy Covid contracts, many of which enriched his party friends and associates.

And at the end of all this voters lose trust. Without trust what have you got? Who do you believe, and what basis have you got to really believe anything that they say?

In be same way that RR said no tax rises for working people?
Can’t trust anyone these days…..
Ask the farmers