[Politics] Is democracy in crisis?

[chip]

I think this an age old problem. Some carzy bloke 2000 years ago said "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles?"

Not sure their are any genuine prophets.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Do you know what, I think you're on to something here with some of these points. And I don't normally think that, let alone post it.

"The left needs to totally de weaponize their language" is basically just code for "stop calling my/the right's overtly racist opinions racist". Now while I can see how calling that sort of thing out is not exactly the best way to go around winning friends and influencing people, provoking a response and then claiming "oh how shocking, look at what this person's just called me" is a deliberate tactic groups on the right use to gradually shift the window on what's considered normal and acceptable.

I say that, Lord knows I find the more pious end of the left as painfully irritating as the next man.

In all democracies the parties representing what we in Britain would recognise as the mainstream centreground have to find a way to sell a meaningful story to people who perceive their lives to be getting worse, because otherwise people do look to snake oil salesmen for solutions, and always have done. If you cut through on the economy and how it effects people's lives in a way that they can actually see and feel the value in, they don't really care about all the stuff around the side to do with the language you use or even most of your actual policies. When a governing party are seen to deliver good growth, jobs and low inflation, they can ride through pretty much anything on any other issues.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Going back to the original question, what puzzles me is that people who would have been totally unelectable a few decades ago can now run for office and even get in. Events which would have previously taken politicians, and/or governments down, now happen in plain sight seeming without consequence. Strange times.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

I’ve just made a bid on a cave ..I’ve already bought a set of paints/brushes and a bow n arrow

I have a survival kit and air rifle in the loft..

 

[LamieRobertson]

I have a survival kit and air rifle in the loft..

Nothing for her in doors?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm leaving party politics and my personal opinions aside when I post this, but it seems as though on either side of the Atlantic there is a widening gap between what politicians say in their election campaigning, and what they deliver when in power.

There was a time when you knew what Tory and Labour, Republican and Democrat stood for. They maintained core principles, but now those have become blurred and inconsistent.

We are told the US electorate cared most about the economy so elected Trump, rejecting some pretty good numbers in the context of the G20 re growth, unemployment, interest rates coming down. US voters believe Trump, yet if we take Trump at his word we know tariffs, lower taxes and plans for mass deportations will all be inflationary and interest rates will have to rise as a result. This will make things worse, not better, for the average US citizen.

He won't end the war in Ukraine or the Israel - Arab conflict in a matter of days, he won't end inflation, just like he didn't build a walls and make the Mexicans pay for it.

Similarly, Boris did not "Get Brexit Done" or "Take Back Control", Cameron stayed quiet in the 2010 campaign then immediately foisted austerity upon us, Lib Dems promised an end to tuition fees but did a 180, Labour stayed deliberately quiet in the 2024 campaign, then borrowed shitloads of cash and foisted huge NI increases on employers and higher tuition fees on the students that just voted for them. This disconnect between words and actions goes across the political spectrum.

We also seem to get every incoming government blaming the previous government, thus excusing all sorts of draconian action immediately they seize power.

And we just know Trump is going to get away without a custodial sentence despite all of his various crimes and misdemeanours, in the same way we know the Johnson government will get away with wasting billions and billions on dodgy Covid contracts, many of which enriched his party friends and associates.

And at the end of all this voters lose trust. Without trust what have you got? Who do you believe, and what basis have you got to really believe anything that they say?

Same as it ever was. But the level of scrutiny and transparency is far greater now.

Churchill had us all chopping down our metal fences to build Spitfires and most of the metal ended up as scrap in warehouses.

Don't catastrophize. Politics is the art of the possible, and the people always get the governments they deserve.

 

[Weststander]

Going back to the original question, what puzzles me is that people who would have been totally unelectable a few decades ago can now run for office and even get in. Events which would have previously taken politicians, and/or governments down, now happen in plain sight seeming without consequence. Strange times.

1. Social media. When even thick as sh1t Le Tissier has a load of political followers, the world is in trouble. Complete lies by all and sundry spread like wildfire, experts/scientists ignored.
2. Mass migration. Who would’ve thought 15 years ago that Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Sweden and the Netherlands would have incredibly popular parties from the far right or getting on for that? No one I’d suggest. It’s a reaction. Not from me though. Tyndall and Webster in the 70’s were obscure fringe characters, in 2024 Tommy Robinson, Tate, Farage have huge followings.

 

[WATFORD zero]

"The left needs to totally de weaponize their language" is basically just code for "stop calling my/the right's overtly racist opinions racist". Now while I can see how calling that sort of thing out is not exactly the best way to go around winning friends and influencing people, provoking a response and then claiming "oh how shocking, look at what this person's just called me" is a deliberate tactic groups on the right use to gradually shift the window on what's considered normal and acceptable.

I say that, Lord knows I find the more pious end of the left as painfully irritating as the next man.

In all democracies the parties representing what we in Britain would recognise as the mainstream centreground have to find a way to sell a meaningful story to people who perceive their lives to be getting worse, because otherwise people do look to snake oil salesmen for solutions, and always have done. If you cut through on the economy and how it effects people's lives in a way that they can actually see and feel the value in, they don't really care about all the stuff around the side to do with the language you use or even most of your actual policies. When a governing party are seen to deliver good growth, jobs and low inflation, they can ride through pretty much anything on any other issues.

If you look at what they have said over years and years it's almost impossible to claim Trump and Farage are not racist. But maybe they're not inherently racist, but just using racism to achieve their own self-serving financial ends.

It really isn't much better is it, but as we see, there's a good few on NSC who've been taken in completely and repeat it constantly

 

[Pavilionaire]

“I'm leaving party politics and my personal opinions aside when I post this” says the opening line and then goes on to to use examples of Trump and Boris and not mention the lies told by Biden and Starmer. Interesting.

What are you talking about? My opening post criticised the Lib Dems over tuition fees and I voted for them in 2010. I only didn't open with Starmer because Labour have been out of power for 14 years, in which time trust in politicians has tanked.

You will also have read in my subsequent post that I had a go at Labour for being less than honest in their manifesto about NI and tuition fees. You could add to the the massive borrowing undertaking and sizeable hike in the NMW / NLW have that proved to be a double whammy for employers, along with NI.

I don't think you are capable of standing back and seeing the bigger picture. My point is apolitical - it is about the relationship between parties, policies, the electorate and the loss of trust. The German coalition has fallen apart, Macron is a dead man walking too - these issues go beyond the UK and the USA.

There is nothing more I would like than for the Republicans and Conservative to return to their core values, rather than this divisive, cultish paths they've chosen. I will admit that in terms of having a manifesto and then acting upon the manifesto Thatcher and Reagan were strong and clear. I think Blair too was easily our best Prime Minister of the last 30 years. Maybe it is time to revisit what made them popular and to draw lessons about clarity, guts, vision but also realism.

 

[WATFORD zero]

What are you talking about? My opening post criticised the Lib Dems over tuition fees and I voted for them in 2010. I only didn't open with Starmer because Labour have been out of power for 14 years, in which time trust in politicians has tanked.

You will also have read in my subsequent post that I had a go at Labour for being less than honest in their manifesto about NI and tuition fees. You could add to the the massive borrowing undertaking and sizeable hike in the NMW / NLW have that proved to be a double whammy for employers, along with NI.

I don't think you are capable of standing back and seeing the bigger picture. My point is apolitical - it is about the relationship between parties, policies, the electorate and the loss of trust. The German coalition has fallen apart, Macron is a dead man walking too - these issues go beyond the UK and the USA.

There is nothing more I would like than for the Republicans and Conservative to return to their core values, rather than this divisive, cultish paths they've chosen. I will admit that in terms of having a manifesto and then acting upon the manifesto Thatcher and Reagan were strong and clear. I think Blair too was easily our best Prime Minister of the last 30 years. Maybe it is time to revisit what made them popular and to draw lessons about clarity, guts, vision but also realism.

@Giraffe is a very vocal Reform supporter. I won't comment any further on his posts or views because I wouldn't want to be banned

 

[Giraffe]

What are you talking about? My opening post criticised the Lib Dems over tuition fees and I voted for them in 2010. I only didn't open with Starmer because Labour have been out of power for 14 years, in which time trust in politicians has tanked.

You will also have read in my subsequent post that I had a go at Labour for being less than honest in their manifesto about NI and tuition fees. You could add to the the massive borrowing undertaking and sizeable hike in the NMW / NLW have that proved to be a double whammy for employers, along with NI.

I don't think you are capable of standing back and seeing the bigger picture. My point is apolitical - it is about the relationship between parties, policies, the electorate and the loss of trust. The German coalition has fallen apart, Macron is a dead man walking too - these issues go beyond the UK and the USA.

There is nothing more I would like than for the Republicans and Conservative to return to their core values, rather than this divisive, cultish paths they've chosen. I will admit that in terms of having a manifesto and then acting upon the manifesto Thatcher and Reagan were strong and clear. I think Blair too was easily our best Prime Minister of the last 30 years. Maybe it is time to revisit what made them popular and to draw lessons about clarity, guts, vision but also realism.

You only mentioned Boris and Trump. No other names.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Same as it ever was. But the level of scrutiny and transparency is far greater now.

Don't catastrophize. Politics is the art of the possible, and the people always get the governments they deserve.

You don't think it's catastrophic that a convicted felon / adulterer / riot inciter / serial liar is leader of the free world once again? When has that ever happened before?

You don't think it's catastrophic that the Tory party has become The Reform Party-lite, stripped of talent, of purpose, of morality? Our country has lost an effective Opposition, while a whole chunk of right of centre moderate voters are politically disenfranchised

If politics ever was the art of the possible then it has ceased to be that for some years. That ended with "£350 million a week for the NHS" on the side of a bus. It's more a case of persuading the electorate to believe the impossible, then getting them to vote for it

"I will end inflation" and "I will end the Ukraine war before I ever get into office" says Trump. How is that the art of the possible?

 

[Machiavelli]

"The left needs to totally de weaponize their language" is basically just code for "stop calling my/the right's overtly racist opinions racist". Now while I can see how calling that sort of thing out is not exactly the best way to go around winning friends and influencing people, provoking a response and then claiming "oh how shocking, look at what this person's just called me" is a deliberate tactic groups on the right use to gradually shift the window on what's considered normal and acceptable.

I say that, Lord knows I find the more pious end of the left as painfully irritating as the next man.

In all democracies the parties representing what we in Britain would recognise as the mainstream centreground have to find a way to sell a meaningful story to people who perceive their lives to be getting worse, because otherwise people do look to snake oil salesmen for solutions, and always have done. If you cut through on the economy and how it effects people's lives in a way that they can actually see and feel the value in, they don't really care about all the stuff around the side to do with the language you use or even most of your actual policies. When a governing party are seen to deliver good growth, jobs and low inflation, they can ride through pretty much anything on any other issues.

There is some of that code for racism, but there's also an awful lot of others that have to suffer being told that they're thick. That's pure intellectual snobbery, and yes the 'more pious end of the left' is the most guilty of this, closely followed by those that have magically discovered the truth that is the centre ground.
An alternative view is that we're all just expressing points of view. Some I find to be better expressed, and some can even chime with mine. But if you support democracy, then every voice counts.
And you're right the nectar is 'good growth, jobs and low inflation' -- but when did that last happen? In the UK, you're looking at pre-2008 and that followed on from three decades of accelerating inequality, and that bites in the end, especially when that's followed with a further 16 years of 'negligible growth, insecure low paid jobs and temporary high inflation'.
The rot started with Thatcher and the after-effects are still playing out, but -- whatever you want to call it -- the left, social democracy, etc is yet to find an answer and a vision that sufficient numbers can get behind, feel, internalise and support. Until that takes place, we'll continue with where we are currently and have been since at least 2016.

 

[Giraffe]

@Giraffe is a very vocal Reform supporter. I won't comment any further on his posts or views because I wouldn't want to be banned

“Very vocal”.

Yes I voted for them in the last election, despite being a non-active member of the Conservative Party. I could never vote Labour because they always spend money they don’t have, I couldn’t vote for the conservatives as they made such a mess of the last 14 days, the greens have no proper policies, the Lib Dem’s are further left than Kier, so given that who else was there to vote for?

Does that make me very vocal? No, not really. However this country is crying out for something different, and all we are getting is the same old broken policies that just don’t work.

 

[WATFORD zero]

“Very vocal”.

Yes I voted for them in the last election, despite being a non-active member of the Conservative Party. I could never vote Labour because they always spend money they don’t have, I couldn’t vote for the conservatives as they made such a mess of the last 14 days, the greens have no proper policies, the Lib Dem’s are further left than Kier, so given that who else was there to vote for?

Does that make me very vocal? No, not really. However this country is crying out for something different, and all we are getting is the same old broken policies that just don’t work.

I would have said about 100 prior to Sir a Nigel coming back and then DDay gate. Tories are leaving for Reform in droves (me included) which might leave the Tories with as little as 50 seats or less?

Same, Tory all my life, but won't be voting for that shower that are currently running it. Reform for now as a protest vote against them. Then hope that the Conservative party sorts its act out for next time.

I think they’ll return to the Tories and possibly Reform. Depends if those two come to some kind of alliance. The truth is this country is not a socialist state and the people won’t tolerate a socialist government. Starmer needs to move to the middle or he’ll lose next time.

I think more will return to the Tories but since you asked these are all very business friendly Reform policies:

Reform said it would reduce the main corporation tax rate from 25 per cent to 20 per cent and raise the threshold for paying the tax from £50,000 to £100,000.

Its other proposals for the economy include the abolition of IR35 regulations introduced by the Conservatives in recent years to govern off-payroll working.

Business rates would be scrapped for small and medium firms, while an online delivery tax, levied at 3 per cent, is intended to “create a fairer playing field” for high-street businesses versus online competitors.

The VAT threshold would be raised to £120,000 to “free small entrepreneurs from red tape”.

I'd call it fairly vocal

 

[kevo]

The real issues regarding democracy concern the media and the spread of disinformation.

When politicians such as Trump and Badenoch (see her maiden PM's Question Time) lie with impunity, we need a robust and unpartisan media that people can trust to call them to account. Unfortunately, most media outlets are organs of propaganda and regulatory bodies such as Ofcom are completely toothless. Don't underestimate the role of Fox News in getting Trump elected or the role of GB News in the rise of Reform.

Newspapers are owned by billionaires such as Murdoch and Bezos (who spiked the Washington Post's endorsement of Harris), who use them to serve their own ends. Social media has even more influence, but X is flooded with fake news bots and controlled by an oligarch who wilfully manipulates the content that people can see.

With postal voting becoming increasingly popular, there is also the danger that votes themselves can be manipulated. That might sound like a conspiracy theory, but the threat of cyber attacks, hackers and AI on determining the outcome of future elections is very real.

 

[BadFish]

Same as it ever was. But the level of scrutiny and transparency is far greater now.

Churchill had us all chopping down our metal fences to build Spitfires and most of the metal ended up as scrap in warehouses.

Don't catastrophize. Politics is the art of the possible, and the people always get the governments they deserve.

This. As an electorate our standards and expectations have dropped and descernement is minimal.

The trouble is it is hard to see how to turn that around. Look how low your last governement had to stoop before you turfed them out.

... And still people call for their return.

 

[Pavilionaire]

There is some of that code for racism, but there's also an awful lot of others that have to suffer being told that they're thick. That's pure intellectual snobbery, and yes the 'more pious end of the left' is the most guilty of this, closely followed by those that have magically discovered the truth that is the centre ground.
An alternative view is that we're all just expressing points of view. Some I find to be better expressed, and some can even chime with mine. But if you support democracy, then every voice counts.
And you're right the nectar is 'good growth, jobs and low inflation' -- but when did that last happen? In the UK, you're looking at pre-2008 and that followed on from three decades of accelerating inequality, and that bites in the end, especially when that's followed with a further 16 years of 'negligible growth, insecure low paid jobs and temporary high inflation'.
The rot started with Thatcher and the after-effects are still playing out, but -- whatever you want to call it -- the left, social democracy, etc is yet to find an answer and a vision that sufficient numbers can get behind, feel, internalise and support. Until that takes place, we'll continue with where we are currently and have been since at least 2016.

I think that calling someone stupid is counter-productive and wrong, but it is clear that some voters are better informed than others.

It is also clear that if people choose to vote purely on "it's the economy stupid" and only on matters that effect them directly, without considering the environment, education, foreign policy, justice etc then the world really is f***ed.

Trump made it sound like the USA is a nation where everyone is on the breadline, nobody has any money and where inflation is rampant. There is some of that but not to the extent you'd believe.

Trump's personal deficiencies are bad enough, as are some of his extreme ideas, but as bad as anything is the idea he will "drill baby drill" and "frack frack frack" his way to ecological armageddon.

He's a f*cking dinosaur on the environment, but US voters don't seem to care. The US economy was doing OK and certainly not so bad as to risk economic, military and environmental chaos. They want to look inwards, not outwards, and that's dangerous for the rest of us.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

“Very vocal”.

Yes I voted for them in the last election, despite being a non-active member of the Conservative Party. I could never vote Labour because they always spend money they don’t have, I couldn’t vote for the conservatives as they made such a mess of the last 14 days, the greens have no proper policies, the Lib Dem’s are further left than Kier, so given that who else was there to vote for?

Does that make me very vocal? No, not really. However this country is crying out for something different, and all we are getting is the same old broken policies that just don’t work.

If only it was!

What is the “something different” you want?

 

[Driver8]

All down to the internet and social media. There is no way we would have voted for Brexit without it and no way Trump would have been elected president either time.