[Politics] Is democracy in crisis?

[Bodian]

Thats not what we were talking about you were deflecting from my previous point. Try again.

It's precisely what we were talking about.

But you've done this before - just like Trump. Turn a question/discussion into something else completely because your initial point is nonsense.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I am happy for Las Vegan to stay fully dressed I think.... And Hunter Biden.

Aren't people meant to be friendlier and get along better if everybody's naked, because of the sense of exposure and vulnerability?

I may have completely made that up. But maybe it's the answer, I definitely think Parliament should try it one day to see if it makes any difference to the tone of the debate.

As long as I don't have to watch, obviously.

Obviously.

 

[Randy McNob]

For me, we need to break the left / right divide

A certain percentage of voter believe in right wing ideals and others left wing principles, however a large proportion are neither and elections seem to be about getting the 3rd group to swing one way. Left and right harks back to a time where we had a 2 tier society of the wealthy and the workers but the world isn't like that anymore. PR would help as it would create a broader range of parties which appeal to specific groups and are neither left or right leaning. Too many people feel disenfranchised with politics.

 

[Crawley Dingo]

It's precisely what we were talking about.

But you've done this before - just like Trump. Turn a question/discussion into something else completely because your initial point is nonsense.



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Nice try at selective editing, I was referring to the 2020 steal with evidence, you decided to ignore that and flip it to cats n dogs.

This is another Trumpism. There was evidence of cats being eaten in Ohio but not Springfield where there was evidence of Haitians eating geese and ducks from the park. This is how Trump plays and directs the media where he wants who cry liar. To his supporters its close enough.

I have addressed your point would you like to speculate where Biden got the extra 10 to 15 million votes in 2020?

 

[The Clamp]

Nice try at selective editing, I was referring to the 2020 steal with evidence, you decided to ignore that and flip it to cats n dogs.

This is another Trumpism. There was evidence of cats being eaten in Ohio but not Springfield where there was evidence of Haitians eating geese and ducks from the park. This is how Trump plays and directs the media where he wants who cry liar. To his supporters its close enough.

I have addressed your point would you like to speculate where Biden got the extra 10 to 15 million votes in 2020?

Could we see the evidence of cats being eaten in Ohio please?


Of course we f***ing can’t.

 

[Bodian]

Nice try at selective editing, I was referring to the 2020 steal with evidence, you decided to ignore that and flip it to cats n dogs.

This is another Trumpism. There was evidence of cats being eaten in Ohio but not Springfield where there was evidence of Haitians eating geese and ducks from the park. This is how Trump plays and directs the media where he wants who cry liar. To his supporters its close enough.

I have addressed your point would you like to speculate where Biden got the extra 10 to 15 million votes in 2020?

Well - you didn't actually reference the 2020 steal in your answer though. Just included a graph with nothing to indicate what you were saying, so how were we meant to unpick how your mind was working?! I wasn't flipping it to cats and dogs, my initial email led with the cats and dogs - as you well know.

Anyway - we've also discussed the additional 2020 votes. Large numbers voting to get rid of Trump as he had been pretty awful 2016-2020. But then they got disillusioned as covid-induced inflation and so on ate away at their living standards, they decided it was the democrats fault - so didn't bother voting this time around. They are now about to find out again about Trump.

The woman arrested for allegedly killing and eating a cat (singular woman, singular cat) 170 miles away from Springfield was a US citizen. So, nowhere near Springfield, not cats (plural), not dogs, not immigrants - but you feel that this is 'close enough'.....

 

[Crawley Dingo]

Anyway - we've also discussed the additional 2020 votes. Large numbers voting to get rid of Trump as he had been pretty awful 2016-2020. But then they got disillusioned as covid-induced inflation and so on ate away at their living standards, they decided it was the democrats fault - so didn't bother voting this time around. They are now about to find out again about Trump.

25% is a massive swing and I dont buy it as you say, I saw data suggesting about 20% of postal voters voted in the wrong state which I assume means twice. Still its going to be one of many investigations going forward. Jack smith has been told to preserve all documents as he is also going to be investigated.

I think the Epstein clients list publication will be the first bunch of wronguns exposed.

 

[nicko31]

I heard Anthony Scaramucci say last week if Musk had supported the Dems they would have won. Initially I thought he was wrong, but maybe he's right.

This is decent journalism from Carol C at the Guardian.

There’s a new oligarchy in town and the tech bros have very deep pockets.

Trump wants power and they can help him enrich his family, his cronies and of course themselves.

Suppression of the truth and disinformation is power, it isn’t too late but we’re in trouble

A new era dawns. America’s tech bros now strut their stuff in the corridors of power | Carole Cadwalladr

The era that began with the Great Disruptor’s first term is over. Beware the emerging elite

www.theguardian.com

 

[dsr-burnley]

25% is a massive swing and I dont buy it as you say, I saw data suggesting about 20% of postal voters voted in the wrong state which I assume means twice. Still its going to be one of many investigations going forward. Jack smith has been told to preserve all documents as he is also going to be investigated.

I think the Epstein clients list publication will be the first bunch of wronguns exposed.

Harris got 72m votes, Trump 75m.

Harris got 12% fewer votes than Biden, and the swing from Democrat to Republican was 6.7%.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

25% is a massive swing and I dont buy it as you say, I saw data suggesting about 20% of postal voters voted in the wrong state which I assume means twice. Still its going to be one of many investigations going forward. Jack smith has been told to preserve all documents as he is also going to be investigated.

I think the Epstein clients list publication will be the first bunch of wronguns exposed.

Somehow, I don't think that exposing the activities of Epstein's associates is going to be high on Donald Trump's to do list!

 

[Crawley Dingo]

Harris got 72m votes, Trump 75m.

Harris got 12% fewer votes than Biden, and the swing from Democrat to Republican was 6.7%.

We are talking extra votes here not a swing.

 

[Crawley Dingo]

Somehow, I don't think that exposing the activities of Epstein's associates is going to be high on Donald Trump's to do list!

its easy and will obliterate the Hollywood left. Also Musk has been pushing it.

 

[Bodian]

We are talking extra votes here not a swing.

If Biden got 81m and Harris 72m - that's 9m difference. Not 25%?

 

[BadFish]

I am admire your patience in highlighting CD's bullshit. He gets owned on every subject he posts about, and then just ignores it and moves to another false claim.

It is a wonderful insight into the (definately not stupid) MaGa cultists.

Trump and Musk's bullshit is the only evidence this fella needs. He is everything that is wrong with politics in 2024.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

For me, we need to break the left / right divide

A certain percentage of voter believe in right wing ideals and others left wing principles, however a large proportion are neither and elections seem to be about getting the 3rd group to swing one way. Left and right harks back to a time where we had a 2 tier society of the wealthy and the workers but the world isn't like that anymore. PR would help as it would create a broader range of parties which appeal to specific groups and are neither left or right leaning. Too many people feel disenfranchised with politics.

To be honest, I think the left/right divide IS being broken, and will take a while to settle into a new normal, hence the election results we're seeing.

We still have a system of wealthy and workers, but who they vote for has changed. The left used to be the party of subsidising factories and keeping mines open, now it is the right's policy so the workers have shifted right. The middle classes in the suburbs used to associate themselves with the wealthy and vote right, now they find themselves more aligned with the left on social issues and have shifted that way.

What I think you have is a broken link between economic policies and social policies of each party, with people being dragged one way on (a) and the other way on (b) and that is putting a strain on two-party democracy with people not entirely sure which way to go. Yes to PR, I guess, although when you're electing a president that's not an option. I think a lot of Trump voters held their noses on things like abortion, reasoning there wasn't much he (nor Harris) could do individually about that, and went with the economic promises.

Final point - it is all about promises. The worlds not in a great place so people want things to change and vote for the guy who says he will deliver change. Anyone saying we're going to continue on the same path and that's the best option might well be right but ain't going to win. This is a step on the classic route of societal collapse.

 

[Zeberdi]

I am admire your patience in highlighting CD's bullshit. He gets owned on every subject he posts about, and then just ignores it and moves to another false claim.

It is a wonderful insight into the (definately not stupid) MaGa cultists.

Trump and Musk's bullshit is the only evidence this fella needs. He is everything that is wrong with politics in 2024.

But at some point you will have to accept that CD’s type of “bullshit” is winning elections so we’ll have to come up with a better counter attack than just trolling and attacking those who have different opinions to us regardless of whether they are talking bollix or not!

 

[Chicken Run]

just trolling and attacking those who have different opinions to us

So you do advocate trolling then?

You’re the first to bemoan anyone that apparently trolls you (pointless emoji)

 

[BadFish]

But at some point you will have to accept that CD’s type of “bullshit” is winning elections so we’ll have to come up with a better counter attack than just trolling and attacking those who have different opinions to us regardless of whether they are talking bollix or not!

My issue isn't with CD's opinions, everyone is very welcome to their own. However the conflation of that opinion with the bullshit really concerns me.

Opinions are whole overrated as a notion, especially when they are based on bullshit. This is of course my opinion and one that seems to be in the minority in the current climate. To the point where to suggest that it is stupid to base one's opinion on lies, misinformation and other bullshit is also seen as wrong (through the rather disingenuous conflated lens of 'you can't call someone stupid for having a different opinion of course).

My post was more about supporting Bodian's patient calling out and disproving of the bullshit CD uses to form his opinion. I have done this on many occasion on here and attempted to do it with CD too, he has me on ignore for my troubles perhaps because I posted a little harshly and suggested he was wrong. Apparently the far right are sensitive to this these days, it is so hard to keep up

 

[Zeberdi]

My issue isn't with CD's opinions, everyone is very welcome to their own. However the conflation of that opinion with the bullshit really concerns me.

Opinions are whole overrated as a notion, especially when they are based on bullshit. This is of course my opinion and one that seems to be in the minority in the current climate. To the point where to suggest that it is stupid to base one's opinion on lies, misinformation and other bullshit is also seen as wrong (through the rather disingenuous conflated lens of 'you can't call someone stupid for having a different opinion of course).

My post was more about supporting Bodian's patient calling out and disproving of the bullshit CD uses to form his opinion. I have done this on many occasion on here and attempted to do it with CD too, he has me on ignore for my troubles perhaps because I posted a little harshly and suggested he was wrong. Apparently the far right are sensitive to this these days, it is so hard to keep up

My post was not a criticism of you but rather questioning the wisdom of an approach that attacks those of a different political persuasion - I was simply pointing out the proven futility of anyone that made constant ad hominem attacks on Trump supporters for spreading fake news and conspiracy theories. Clearly it didn’t work - Trump won the election comfortably.

As you say, CD has you on ignore so your words are not reaching the person that needs to hear them anyway, he is not an isolated voice - clearly as Harris found out to her cost, simply calling out the far right/MAGA for speaking “bullshit” wasn’t enough nor even the right tactic at all.

If people really want to progress the debate between the right and left, they need to come up with proactive positive messaging about what they stand for.

Attacking people just makes them defensive- it doesn’t educate or enlighten, it makes them deaf to opposing opinions.

More importantly, for those of us wanting to genuinely effect change, the people we want to engage with, just get bored and turned off by the constant mudslinging on both sides.

 

[BadFish]

My post was not a criticism of you but rather questioning the wisdom of an approach that attacks those of a different political persuasion - I was simply pointing out the proven futility of anyone that made constant ad hominem attacks on Trump supporters for spreading fake news and conspiracy theories. Clearly it didn’t work - Trump won the election comfortably.

As you say, CD has you on ignore so your words are not reaching the person that needs to hear them anyway, he is not an isolated voice - clearly as Harris found out to her cost, simply calling out the far right/MAGA for speaking “bullshit” wasn’t enough nor even the right tactic at all.

If people really want to progress the debate between the right and left, they need to come up with proactive positive messaging about what they stand for.

Attacking people just makes them defensive- it doesn’t educate or enlighten, it makes them deaf to opposing opinions.

More importantly, for those of us wanting to genuinely effect change, the people we want to engage with, just get bored and turned off by the constant mudslinging on both sides.

Most of what I see I would describe as challenging rather than attacking as you put it.

A bit of robust debate never hurt anyone and I am not really sure I agree that it is this (or when it spills over to mudslinging and attacking) that was the reason for Trump's victory.

The notion of am electorate fed up with politics and looking for a champion to smash the system is a much sounder hypothesis in my opinion.

Pussy footing around and pretending that having an opinion that immigrants are eating pets because your cult leader has told you this is the case, because he is 'close enough to the truth' is valid, isn't going to make any difference either way.