[News] Is Britain work shy ?

[Commander]

So in essence people are work shy today because you and the others from your generation failed to raise and inspire the next generation to be as good as you?

Have to admit this is one I haven't heard yet. "I can't get a decent job because the generation above me have failed to inspire me to".

It's a good one

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

So in essence people are work shy today because you and the others from your generation failed to raise and inspire the next generation to be as good as you?

Then I wonder what you think you could have done better to make the kids of today as good people as you are?

I'm genuinely interested in understanding why people think young people are lazier today than they were.

Oh really you are a tool. Lets see if we can find a use for you.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

For example my job, we had 2500 applicants on the last round, entry level job as well, but you have to cut people down, AI is making it very murky, IMO. Recruitment seems to be absolutely broken at the moment, we are struggling to get people once you get to the interview stage, and the ones that do start are not of good quality. I wish it was as simple as when @PILTDOWN MAN applied, but its very difficult for people to navigate the recruitment process and it means that the best candidates get ignored.

BCal had an apprenticeship scheme of 18 entries per year. I was lucky to be one of 4500 applicants. Nothing has changed.

One of the others who got the job was Keith Cuss' son Simon.

 

[beorhthelm]

Minimum wage full time job lets say take home £420 after tax rent £300 per week for a tiny one bed flat.
That leaves you a massive £120 for the week with no food or fuel bills paid let alone council tax.
Existing isn’t a life is it?

where did this idea we should automatically live on our own from a basic wage emerge from? time was you lived with parents until you'd got a few rungs up the wage ladder, or shared a flat with mates, strangers, whatever.

 

[Rdodge30]

Some people have spent their life working so hard they forgot to learn thinking or feeling or understanding other humans

If that’s aimed at me then that is a very poor argument- because I disagree with you I don’t have understanding for other humans?

I honestly think we are talking about different people here, it’s just that you seem to think they don’t exist.

Anyone who hasn’t lived on benefits wouldn’t understand

Hardly anyone doesn’t understand

Benefit cap in this country for a single person is (roughly) the same as working 30 hours a week on minimum wage.

 

[Blue3]

Is Britain work shy not exactly but I can see why you might be thinking that.

The real answer is far more complicated but to find answers we only need to look to the past.

If we work on the fact that everything has a life cycle including the earth and everything upon it, then it’s also true that every Society also has a lifecycle that ultimately ends in collapse.

Capitalism is midway through its final phase while political parties and the public scrabble around for solutions society is ever so slowly breaking down.

The Roman Empire has had over 200 reasons attributed to its collapse, one of the main reasons related to a change Romans in that for generations it was viewed by joining the army was a way to get on in life it was a civic duty, this view changed over time and instead they gave the jobs to others are the British work shy or are we choosing no longer perform our civic duties.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

If that’s aimed at me then that is a very poor argument- because I disagree with you I don’t have understanding for other humans?

I honestly think we are talking about different people here, it’s just that you seem to think they don’t exist.

Anyone who hasn’t lived on benefits wouldn’t understand

Hardly anyone doesn’t understand

Benefit cap in this country for a single person is (roughly) the same as working 30 hours a week on minimum wage.

Could have been aimed at me as well, haha.

Keeping back the encouragement I gave to my kids. I'll wait for the next post of woe.

 

[Han Solo]

And this goes back to what I was saying earlier about people not being told the right things at school / Uni / wherever about how to actually get on in life. I've been employing people in Brighton for almost 8 years. In the time ONE person has taken the time to contact me directly and ask for an interview to work for my company. We employed her, she was great. And she has since buggered off to set up her own company, the bitch . But it's no surprise that somebody who bothered to use her initiative like that has gone on to do really well for herself. Unlike the countless others I've hired who didn't work out for us and have since drifted, failing from job to job.




I would argue this is another example of the problem. You said there is no way anyone could get a job like that today. It took 5 seconds to search Google for 'Aircraft Engineer Apprenticeships' and an advert for a job doing exactly that, with no degree required immediately appeared. I showed it to you and you decided it basically can't be true, and found a problem with it. Anybody who has that kind of attitude is going to struggle to find a decent job!


I mean, you could have just said "Yeah OK, fair enough" or something like I did to @PILTDOWN MAN when he completely schooled me earlier in the thread. But I know that's not your style.

Could there be a link between any of this attitude and the struggles that you have said you face to gain meaningful employment?

There are very strong links between my attitude and my unemployment. I'm a lost case. I'm not young either.

But its not relevant to the topic or my stance. I have zero self-interest on this topic. The ONLY thing I try to do here right now is to highlight the situation of the depressed and hopeless youth of the world today that gets dismissed as "lazy".

They need help and understanding and they need it now or we're going to have suicide rates that make the rates of the 1920s and 30s depression look like a kids game.

Understand them and help them get good lives or bring out the whip and push them over the edge. Thats the only two options at this point.

Those who have done well and lived well need to pull their head out their arses and try to understand that society has changed in the direction of "easier to live, more difficult to have a life" and that the young ones are depressed about it.

 

[jackalbion]

BCal had an apprenticeship scheme of 18 entries per year. I was lucky to be one of 4500 applicants. Nothing has changed.

One of the others who got the job was Keith Cuss' son Simon.

To a certain extent though it has, I'd be surprised if you can get in at entry level now, they usually ask for experience, or degrees. That's before you get to the AI application issues, I've seen recently.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Historically speaking, almost everyone works if there is work for everyone. If there isn't work for everyone, imbalances are created and both unemployment and lack of work force rise.

In Sweden, the last time we had more jobs than people was back in the late 1960s - when almost the entire population were working.

Once the business organisations figured out that "if we have employees fighting for jobs rather than us fighting for workers, we can lower wages", industry went very keen on automatisation. Once there wasn't jobs for 2-3% of the population, social welfare costs, alcoholism, drug abuse and so forth spiked very quickly.

Very similar development could be seen in the transition from industry to service society, which was very workforce heavy in the early days. Once job opportunities diminished, things fell apart again.

I'd like to say "its going to better again, look at history!". But its a bit different since people exist in the same world as industries and services and don't exist in the same world as binary digital numbers and artifical intelligenses. So the future is a bit difficult to envision.

People want to work if there's work and if you get something from working.

People who think that other people want to live on benefits and social welfare most often haven't tried living on it. Dunno what the standards are there but here we social welfare people live on "existence minimum" that can not feed a grown male for a month. Its really not as fun or pleasant as the middle and upper classes seem to think. Its really not something you want if there's tangible options.

Interesting. If I may pick up on your comment on the inadequate provision of Swedish welfare payments, things are different here, if your circumstances allow (which they do for many)....

Council houses. It took me a long time to realize they were forever homes that could be handed down to kids, and not stop gaps for people saving for a mortgage.

I realized there was something odd about this when the woman I did Saturday shopping for in the late 60s lived in a council house with nicer stuff (furniture, kitchen, telly) than the one my mum and dad had bought, and were going on holiday twice a year. And abroad. Undreamt of for my family (we never ever did go on holiday abroad, and my late mum never even went aboard. Not even to Wales.

Well, I didn't mind, really. I was just a bit surprised. On reflection, the rents were too low, and once you were 'in' there was no check for continued need. But of course one would argue that if low income was needed to allow qualification for continued residence in a council house then people wouldn't bother trying to 'better' their lives. That, actually, is a strong argument for elements of what used to be mainstream conservatism.

That said, council housing once transformed lives. I am sure a rubric must be possible with some thought.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

To a certain extent though it has, I'd be surprised if you can get in at entry level now, they usually ask for experience, or degrees. That's before you get to the AI issues.

I agree and posted previously, the apprenticeship schemes are a mess. This has happened as a result of government intervention in the Blair years. Vocational training is far better suited to many of the school leavers. The madness of expecting so many to leave their family homes to be educated elsewhere, often with few actual lectures and building huge debt. Being educated locally and even earning while you do it, albeit a low wage is the proper way of doing it. As an apprentice BCal paid Crawley College to run an HNC then HND course for us. We attended the college and when on term holidays we had to go to work at the airport. We had to take our 14 days leave in this period.

 

[dsr-burnley]

society has changed in the direction of "easier to live, more difficult to have a life" and that the young ones are depressed about it.

Could you clarify what that quote means please?

 

[Rdodge30]

Those who have done well and lived well need to pull their head out their arses and try to understand that society has changed in the direction of "easier to live, more difficult to have a life" and that the young ones are depressed about it.

Your total generalisations both of, “those who have done well” and “the young ones” are just as unacceptable as the generalisations of others that hold the opposite views to you.

It simply won’t do you know.

 

[jackalbion]

I agree and posted previously, the apprenticeship schemes are a mess. This has happened as a result of government intervention in the Blair years. Vocational training is far better suited to many of the school leavers. The madness of expecting so many to leave their family homes to be educated elsewhere, often with few actual lectures and building huge debt. Being educated locally and even earning while you do it, albeit a low wage is the proper way of doing it. As an apprentice BCal paid Crawley College to run an HNC then HND course for us. We attended the college and when on term holidays we had to go to work at the airport. We had to take our 14 days leave in this period.

Agree the apprenticeship schemes in this country are a shambles, need to direct people down the routes they want to go early doors. I think I was lucky in that I always knew what I wanted to do so worked through college and university to get that job, but can see for a lot of people my age it hasn't been an easy task, and especially those younger than me. In the 6 years I've been at my job, its changed massively. My brother has just left university, and when he finished travelling has come back and found it very very hard to get into any industry, let alone one he was aiming at, living at home fortunately, so he hasn't had too many stresses, and can still go to the cinema at 2pm, while I'm stuck at bloody work . Thankfully he's just got a job, but I think the employment to property ladder is getting later and later. Maybe into mid to late 30s even 40s now before you can even fathom a house (with exceptions of course).

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Agree the apprenticeship schemes in this country are a shambles, need to direct people down the routes they want to go early doors. I think I was lucky in that I always knew what I wanted to do so worked through college and university to get that job, but can see for a lot of people my age it hasn't been an easy task, and especially those younger than me. In the 6 years I've been at my job, its changed massively. My brother has just left university, and when he finished travelling has come back and found it very very hard to get into any industry, let alone one he was aiming at, living at home fortunately, so he hasn't had too many stresses, and can still go to the cinema at 2pm, while I'm stuck at bloody work . Thankfully he's just got a job, but I think the employment to property ladder is getting later and later. Maybe into mid to late 30s even 40s now before you can even fathom a house (with exceptions of course).

I do think everyone needs to be prepared to completely change their career paths. Mine has certainly changed. Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards. There's no such thing as over qualified.

 

[The Clamp]

There is a remarkable amount of help out there for under 25’s and Indeed is chock full of jobs both qualified and menial.

The Jobcentre will pay for a CSCS course or an SIA license.

If one is able bodied and willing to work, there’s plenty out there. And if the motivation isn’t there, it’s not hard for the government to provide reasons to work.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I agree with this. I'd be interested to know how the average wage vs average cost-of-living has changed over the decades.

It *feels* like we're earning less and everything costs more, but I don't have data to back that up. Genuinely interested.

 

[Justice]

I'm a bit like Yosser, I can do that!

My career has been varied

Aircraft Engineer
Licensed Aircfraft Engineer
Health & Safety manager
Owned three pubs
Started a licensing company and animal feed/equine business
Owned another pub
Carer of my wife and part owner of Antique shop
Beer technician for Molson Coors
Quality manager for Asahi
Antique dealer.

Antiques was interesting. While caring for my wife a friend bought an antique shop, I invested in it but knew f*** all. I met over time all the top "experts" you see on tv. Realised I knew as much as them, still f*** all.

See here I am, qualified aircraft engineer, liqueur licensee, brewer, beer sommelier and selling old stuff

At least you gave it a go I admire that, I couldn’t work for other people, as my my other half says to me you don’t play well with others it is true I’m a bit of a perfectionist if you are going to do a job do it properly.

 

[Han Solo]

Interesting. If I may pick up on your comment on the inadequate provision of Swedish welfare payments, things are different here, ifyoyur circumstances allow (which they do for many)....

Council houses. It took me a long time to realize they were forever homes that could be handed down to kids, and not stop gaps for people saving for a mortgage.

I realized there was something odd about this when the woman I did Saturday shopping for in the late 60s lived in a council house with nicer stuff (furniture, kitchen, telly) than the one my mum and dad had bought, and were going on holiday twice a year. And abroad. Undreamt of for my family (we never ever did go on holiday abroad, and my late mum never even went aboard. Not even to Wales.

Well, I didn't mind, really. I was just a bit surprised. On reflection, the rents were too low, and once you were 'in' there was no check for continued need. But of course one would argue that if low income was needed to allow qualification for continued residence in a council house then people wouldn't bother trying to 'better' their lives. That, actually, is a strong argument for elements of what used to be mainstream conservatism.

That said, council housing once transformed lives. I am sure a rubric must be possible with some thought.

Housing is always very interesting topic.

Your government and mine gave up on providing housing a long time ago. We gave up trying to push them to as well.
We left it to the kids to sort it out.
"Sorry we gave up on you, but we expect you to be resilient and provide work and taxes to the society who is incapable of doing anything at all for you".

The situation for Britain is difficult tbf. Labour or some other miracle maker is going to need like 40 years of dictatorship to sort shit out. I think this guy makes a decent job of explaining why, especially in the chapter "No Building Please, We're British". It highlights the gigantic costs and problems you are facing. Need to double taxes to catch up with other European countries in infrastructure.

Its a mission impossible. The current ways societies are run prevents Britain from rising again. There are no tools in the current toolbox to change it.



Here in Sweden, the situation is only slightly better because in the 1960s, the government decided to build one million houses, "the million programme" and apartments - nearly doubling the amount at the time.

It took ten years. All of it looks like some DDR nonsense bullshit and for the first 30 years, there were more apartments and houses than people.

An early 90s baby boom - boosted by the fact that is was so amazingly easy to get apartments - and a case of "hyperimmigration" has rather swiftly turned this around.

Do Sweden need to build another million apartments and houses now? Yes. Can it be done? No, what could be done in 10 years back in 1960 can not be done at all today. All of the state companies that could build shit has been privatised meaning its virtually impossible to finance it. House owners and whatnot has had increased opportunities to delay and f*** up planning. And most importantly, the property owners understand the massive benefit of having people fighting and overpaying for housing.

These changes to society are not Sweden unique (or England unique for that matter), they're a global or at least Western phenomenom.
And of course the changes affects the young the most.
The increased difficulty in getting ANYTHING done (aside from skyscrapers in capitals) at the top level increases the difficulty of getting ANYTHING (such as living somewhere) done.

 

[Justice]

where did this idea we should automatically live on our own from a basic wage emerge from? time was you lived with parents until you'd got a few rungs up the wage ladder, or shared a flat with mates, strangers, whatever.

Not everyone is 20 yrs old, plenty of middle aged on minimum wage.