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Immigration soaring



Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
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Oct 8, 2003
56,123
Faversham
I think I'd like to add a comment, directed particularly at the ordinary, decent Tory voter who may feel has been pitchforked into a ditch by the anti tory opprobrium floating around now, of which on NSC I have contributed, with some vim.

It must be very disappointing and uncomfortable to watch the evident weaponizing of immigration to the point of lunacy by an element in the (parliamentary) party. I am sure that a good proportion of tories are not happy with it, any more than I am happy with elements in the Labour party who struggle to hide their anti-Israel prejudices and class war imperatives.

I also sympathize with such tories who are no speaking out against this trope. I understand that speaking out is not the Tory Way, and loyalty to the leadership is a pivotal part of the mindset. In many respects this is commendable. And true feelings are better revealed by actions, such as the defenestration of both Johnson and Lizzy, rather than grumbling in public and bleating to the press.

My only word of warning is this. You will lose votes if there is no visible opposition within the party to the series of wheezes, tin pot schemes, tub thumping and gaslighting that have come to the fore in the last 10 years. Yes, having visible division in the Labour party probably lost it a shit load of votes. However it makes Labour's subsequent marginalization of the loony left credible, and Starmer's leadership more reassuring. With Sunak, it is hard to know what he thinks about his shower element.

A visible 'realignment' under Sunak is unlikely to happen so all I can do is wish decent tories (the majority) all the best, and hope that you can find a way to drain the swamp without conspicuous fuss, because two strong parties is better for us all.

Perhaps the great leader who can gently nudge the tories back into moderation is, in fact, Sunak. The problem is that the Tory way of operating means that it is impossible to tell: Call me Dave, May, Johnson, Lizzy and Sunak all sounded and sound exactly the same in terms of their unwavering support for whatever policies they have adopted, present and past, without any apparent recognition of having made any mistake or indeed made any change of direction, even when they jettisoned Johnson and Lizzy.

There are numerous reasons why the tories have never tempted me personally, but this apparent lack of any recognition of changes in approach let alone acceptance of mistakes and a need to make amends is something really offputting.

Only one Tory leader has come out and made credible criticism of the core direction of the previous incarnation of the party a central plank of their policy, and she won three general elections. I hated her, but she did seem to have her statements, her apparent beliefs, and her actions all aligned. I have no Idea what Sunak really stands for. Yet.

Anyway, thought I'd say something (largely) nice to mainstream tory supporters, Best wishes :thumbsup:
 




WATFORD zero

Well-known member
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Jul 10, 2003
27,772
I disagree with most of that apart from the final sentence.

The bizarre idea that the government is deliberately engineering 'irregular migration' is a Trump-style conspiracy theory. Not heard that one before!

So, if I understand correctly, you think that this Government thought that by taking the following steps

1. Remove the ability to claim Asylum from abroad
2. Close the vast Majority of legal Asylum routes
3. Cease working with Interpol and EU police services to target people traffickers
4. Cutting the numbers of staff processing Asylum claims

It would reduce the number of people being trafficked across the Channel and the resulting many fold increase came as a complete surprise to them. When all along, it was simply down to complete and utter incompetence across the whole of the Cabinet, Government and their very highly paid Political Advisors, over a significant number of years, that none of them considered this might happen ?

Have I understood correctly :shrug:
 
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beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
36,018
So whether you like it or not (and I don't) it is now intractably politicized, and will remain so till the likes of Braverman back off (and she won't, will she?).
of course it's political in nature and has become weaponised by those wanting to latch on to a cause. my observation this isn't exclusive to the UK or one party. there has been a politcal hot potato around asylum for at least 20 years, with various measures by different governments. boat across the Channel is mirrored by boats across the Med. processing and housing of migrants in the UK is mirrored in Netherlands and elsewhere.
 
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chickens

Have you considered masterly inactivity?
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Oct 12, 2022
2,694
Honestly, if we reduced migration below zero, I wonder who would get scapegoated next?
 






A1X

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Sep 1, 2017
20,549
Deepest, darkest Sussex
Honestly, if we reduced migration below zero, I wonder who would get scapegoated next?
People on benefits, already seen plenty of that since the Chancellor's statement, the old "force 'em back to work" brigade out in force
 


chickens

Have you considered masterly inactivity?
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Oct 12, 2022
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People on benefits, already seen plenty of that since the Chancellor's statement, the old "force 'em back to work" brigade out in force

I semi-remember the old Peter Cook line from Beyond the Fringe (Peter Cook impersonating the PM responding to a letter from an old age pensioner in Fife, complaining about the state pension)

“I say to my correspondent, be of good cheer. There are plenty of people in Britain who are far worse off than yourself. And it is the policy of the Conservative Party to see that this position is maintained.”
 
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CheeseRolls

Well-known member
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Jan 27, 2009
6,230
Shoreham Beach
For a quick explanation

The record number of immigrants includes HUGE numbers of students. These are short term, so every year there is an influx and an outflow. Except no one came in the Covid years, so there is currently no corresponding outflow. I really don't know why people coming here to study are classififed as immigrants. They generally have to leave once their studies are completed and they pay through the nose for the benefit.

The other big area is healthcare. Either we have to train more doctors and nurses and pay more for care workers, or accept some of them are going to have to come from elsewhere.
 




amexer

Well-known member
Aug 8, 2011
6,841
What has to be remembered that this is not just UK. Huge problem in small country Netherlands Last year they had over 400k They have over 6k housed on boats and due to house a further 1k on floating motels
 


CheeseRolls

Well-known member
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Jan 27, 2009
6,230
Shoreham Beach
What has to be remembered that this is not just UK. Huge problem in small country Netherlands Last year they had over 400k They have over 6k housed on boats and due to house a further 1k on floating mote
Just to be clear 742K net immigration in 2022 of which about 50k were deemed illegal (seeking asylum using a non recognised route), in case anyone is confusing the two issues here.
 


amexer

Well-known member
Aug 8, 2011
6,841
Just to be clear 742K net immigration in 2022 of which about 50k were deemed illegal (seeking asylum using a non recognised route), in case anyone is confusing the two issues here.
Netherlands certainly did not invite 400k in
 




Bakero

Languidly clinical
Oct 9, 2010
14,891
Almería
What has to be remembered that this is not just UK. Huge problem in small country Netherlands Last year they had over 400k They have over 6k housed on boats and due to house a further 1k on floating motels

The Netherlands had immigration of 400k, emigration of 180k. So a net increase of 220k, which is significant for a small country. About 2/3rds of the newcomers were from Europe, including 100,000 Ukrainians.
 


clapham_gull

Legacy Fan
Aug 20, 2003
25,877
For a quick explanation

The record number of immigrants includes HUGE numbers of students. These are short term, so every year there is an influx and an outflow. Except no one came in the Covid years, so there is currently no corresponding outflow. I really don't know why people coming here to study are classififed as immigrants. They generally have to leave once their studies are completed and they pay through the nose for the benefit.

The other big area is healthcare. Either we have to train more doctors and nurses and pay more for care workers, or accept some of them are going to have to come from elsewhere.


My understand is students can stay for 2 years after their course and there was a relaxation on bring dependents in.

But they knew this:

Back in May - > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65683046

Also here:


Following Brexit, the UK pledged to increase its international student intake to 600,000 by 2030. As the recruitment of foreign students rose, Indian students flocked back to UK universities.

The number of Indian students further increased after 2020 when a two-year post-study work visa was reintroduced for graduate students.

The Government legislated for the increased migration.

Remember post Brexit the Government didn't want it to look like we were closing off to the world, quite the opposite. However since their post Brexit lurch to the fringes, they now disagree with their previous ideology.
 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
For a quick explanation

The record number of immigrants includes HUGE numbers of students. These are short term, so every year there is an influx and an outflow. Except no one came in the Covid years, so there is currently no corresponding outflow. I really don't know why people coming here to study are classififed as immigrants. They generally have to leave once their studies are completed and they pay through the nose for the benefit.

The other big area is healthcare. Either we have to train more doctors and nurses and pay more for care workers, or accept some of them are going to have to come from elsewhere.

The Tories started including students in the immigration figures to 'scare' voters. A friend of my son is a marketing manager for a university, and was really quite annoyed about it. 25% of the immigration figures are students, who, as you said, return after their studies have completed.


A similar thing happened with old age pensions being included in the Welfare budget, so the governments could lament how much they had to pay out every year.
 




Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Just to be clear 742K net immigration in 2022 of which about 50k were deemed illegal (seeking asylum using a non recognised route), in case anyone is confusing the two issues here.
Seeking asylum is not illegal no matter what the route. United Nations convention on Refugees 1951
 


Sid and the Sharknados

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Sep 4, 2022
5,703
Darlington
The Netherlands had immigration of 400k, emigration of 180k. So a net increase of 220k, which is significant for a small country. About 2/3rds of the newcomers were from Europe, including 100,000 Ukrainians.
I think it's fair to say that this is a bigger problem for Ukraine and the Ukrainians concerned that it is for the Netherlands or the other countries they have had to go to.
 


CheeseRolls

Well-known member
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Jan 27, 2009
6,230
Shoreham Beach
Netherlands certainly did not invite 400k in
and this certainty comes from what, an election result?

Talk is cheap. Let's see what they actually do about it. Our government has made it a top priority for the last 13 years and it has resulted in abject failure. If the solutions were simple, even our dismal governments could have made some progress you would think.
 


Bakero

Languidly clinical
Oct 9, 2010
14,891
Almería
I think it's fair to say that this is a bigger problem for Ukraine and the Ukrainians concerned that it is for the Netherlands or the other countries they have had to go to.

That goes without saying. However, when the poster mentioned 400,000 incomers and people being housed on boats, he neglected to mention the fact that the vast majority of arrivals were Europeans. I don't think those Europeans were the problem he was referring to though.
 




Sid and the Sharknados

Well-known member
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Sep 4, 2022
5,703
Darlington
That goes without saying. However, when the poster mentioned 400,000 incomers and people being housed on boats, he neglected to mention the fact that the vast majority of arrivals were Europeans. I don't think those Europeans were the problem he was referring to though.
It should go without saying, but it's worth highlighting occasionally that what we habitually frame as "immigration" into one country is inevitably emigration from another, and that the whole issue can only really be solved if you consider the whole system (e.g. Russia could stop invading Ukraine, we could all stop polluting the whole world, protectionist policies to protect employment in one area inevitably leads to people from other areas with fewer jobs moving there etc.)
 


amexer

Well-known member
Aug 8, 2011
6,841
That goes without saying. However, when the poster mentioned 400,000 incomers and people being housed on boats, he neglected to mention the fact that the vast majority of arrivals were Europeans. I don't think those Europeans were the problem he was referring to though.
Maybe but they all still need housing and jobs. 522 people per kilometre in Netherlands 279 uk 239 Germany 385 Belgium. Of course all better than Ukrain but where does it end
 


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