Immigration soaring

[Dick Swiveller]

How many usernames has Berkshire Seagull gone through since this one in 2014?

 

[The Clamp]

hold on. Sangette refugee camp was closed by French in 2002, the following years saw rules to fine lorry drivers for carrying immigrants, laws changed around claims to discourage asylum seekers. 25% Netherlands just voted for anti-immigration party, Dublin is in flames over an immigrant related incident. this is widespread issue, its not popped up here because of one party. if we keep thinking this is a party political issue, fat chance of doing anything to address it, and fuel the resentment and hostility.

What the Netherland electorate have done is fall for racist rhetoric spouted by the far right party that wanted their votes.

Like the British people have fallen for the Tory’s racist scapegoating for 14 years.

It is very party political. It just happens to be a few party’s in a few countries, all spouting the same bullshit.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Here's the solution you're looking for

Good detailed response. Thanks. I've no objection to people claiming asylum from abroad. It would surely make the process more manageable that way. As for the backlog, I'm guessing this is simply a reflection of the increasingly large numbers? According to gov.uk, it seems there were about 52,000 in the first 6 months of 2023 so the number of arrivals is overwhelming the system by the looks of it. I suspect a lot (most?) of these cases are quite complex and often followed by appeals -- so I'm not sure how easy it is to clear the backlog. It will take years.

 

[Whitechapel]

Thought Cameron was cutting immigration down?
Its increased to over 240,000 in the last year...177,000 of these are students.How the hell can we have 177,000 students come here when our own students or wannabe students can barely afford it?

Sometime's you really wonder wtf is going on in this country...Taking foreign students money in a flash and shitting on our own students...facking shambles.

http://news.sky.com/story/1326030/immigration-significant-rise-in-last-year

I was thinking it was a while since I saw a Sir Albion post on here (thank god for small mercies) so I checked when he last posted.

It was 2019. His post was this…

Why's he a facking hypocrite?
He states clearly the issues here regarding talented engineers.Maybe if we had students that actually had potential in this kind of engineering then he wouldn't need to go elsewhere.Most of the students here are interested in dossing around doing pointless courses or joining groups of demonstrators to Appease the far left.
It's clear that universities here are for making money and to brainwash youngsters.

Damn this country, shitting on their own lazy far left dosser students.

 

[The Clamp]

Good detailed response. Thanks. I've no objection to people claiming asylum from abroad. It would surely make the process more manageable that way. As for the backlog, I'm guessing this is simply a reflection of the increasingly large numbers? According to gov.uk, it seems there were about 52,000 in the first 6 months of 2023 so the number of arrivals is overwhelming the system by the looks of it. I suspect a lot (most?) of these cases are quite complex and often followed by appeals -- so I'm not sure how easy it is to clear the backlog. It will take years.

Are those figures for small boat crossings ?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Good detailed response. Thanks. I've no objection to people claiming asylum from abroad. It would surely make the process more manageable that way. As for the backlog, I'm guessing this is simply a reflection of the increasingly large numbers? According to gov.uk, it seems there were about 52,000 in the first 6 months of 2023 so the number of arrivals is overwhelming the system by the looks of it. I suspect a lot (most?) of these cases are quite complex and often followed by appeals -- so I'm not sure how easy it is to clear the backlog. It will take years.

I'm afraid that your 'guessing at increasing numbers' and suspicions that 'most cases are quite complex' actually have no factual basis. I'm not sure what the 52,000 number is that you are quoting, but suspect that is boat crossings. The figure Sunak has been proudly announcing 'is down on last year'

The increases in the backlog are as a direct result of the Government policies outlined in my post above, and would be cleared and maintained by reversing those policies

 

[The Clamp]

There’s been an increase in small boat crossings.

Contrary to popular belief it’s not because the foreign people feel so well come by Patel and Braverman (I’m alright Jack, pull the ladder up).

It’s cos the Tory’s shut all the safe routes. Allowing trafficking gangs to step in and make a fortune out of people’s desperation and misery.

But hey! Whatever ensures the Tory’s defence cases are paid for and keeps Sunak’s pool heated through austerity, eh?

Dig a ditch….

 

[Berty23]

Incredible the braverman has come out swinging about the immigration figures from
The last year. She should find out who was Home Secretary and have a word. Maybe, just maybe, if they spent less time on a tiny proportion (the boats) they might have a plan. If indeed anyone actually wants fewer migrants because if we had fewer then either HE funding would be screwed (foreign students) or the health and social care systems would be borked. I guess it is easier just to be angry.

 

[chickens]

Here's the solution you're looking for

That will absolutely solve the boat crossings, but not affect the overall immigration figures.

I propose a two part solution.

1a. Make being a parent an attractive proposition. Increased help with childcare, increased flexibility in the workplace etc. Being a parent at the present time is absolutely emotionally and life rewarding, but practically bloody difficult with parents often being short of both time and money.

1b. Enact legislation that forces employers to take in and train those entering the job market for the first time, rather than this current nonsense where employers are paying minimum wage and asking for “3 years experience”. Stop the disconnect between the labour available and what employers are demanding. Employers hate costs, but must bear responsibility for bringing the next generation through into the labour market. Smooth the path. Let’s help bring our own kids through into the labour market, and plug those skills gaps.

2. There are spots in the world, many even within Europe where there’s the need for working age people to join and integrate into communities. Rather than using Rwanda as a stick to beat people with, use diplomacy to discover where people/labour are needed and build voluntary emigration schemes to help people travel, settle and learn the language. I think there are plenty of people here who have enough of a sense of adventure to make a move, but who lack the confidence/resource to navigate the red tape independently. If we up the emigration figure, net migration can fall below zero quite easily.

I honestly believe that the above, coupled with the changes that the Conservatives have already made could swing net migration back to zero or even beyond.

Finally, I can also see why the Conservatives want to limit student visa dependents living in the U.K. to one, our universities long ago lost sight of the fundamentals of education to chase the biggest numbers they can. I don’t have a huge issue with this particular Conservative policy. If after uni people decide they want to build a life here, then absolutely they can apply for a work visa and/or full citizenship and be accepted gladly, but a university course is a fixed length entity, and in the same way that if I had a 2-3 year contract I’d fly home occasionally rather than uproot my family, I do feel the same could/should be the case for international students.

Between @watford zero’s work and the above, I reckon we could get migration down below zero in a fairly straightforward manner without any wankery about Rwanda at all.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

I'm afraid that your 'guessing at increasing numbers' and suspicions that 'most cases are quite complex' actually have no factual basis. I'm not sure what the 52,000 number is that you are quoting, but suspect that is boat crossings. The figure Sunak has been proudly announcing 'is down on last year'

The increases in the backlog are as a direct result of the Government policies outlined in my post above, and would be cleared and maintained by reversing those policies

Asylum cases are absolutely complex by their very nature. There's nothing controversial about that. It's pretty obviously part of the reason for the increasing backlog. Again, not a controversial statement.

As for the figure of 52,000, sorry this isn't for 6 months up to June 2023 but the year up to June 2023. I misread that -- but it still represents an increase. Not sure Sunak got his figures from but this is from the Office of National Statistics. (https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...ear ending June,these arrived via small boats.)

=======================

2. Irregular arrivals​

It is not advisable to directly compare recorded detections on different methods of entry or to assume that figures provide a full picture of how many migrants entered the UK without permission. This is because levels of undercount may vary for different methods of entry. However, some broad trends can be observed.
In the year ending June 2023, there were 52,530 irregular migrants detected entering the UK, up 17% from the year ending June 2022. 85% of these arrived via small boats.

As shown in Figure 1, small boats have been the predominant recorded method of entry for irregular migrants since 2020, when entries via this route increased rapidly and detections on other routes declined (likely in part due to the COVID-19 pandemic making other methods of entry such as air or ferry less viable). Small boats continue to be the predominant recorded method, despite the other entry methods becoming more viable as global COVID-19 restrictions have eased.
=======================

 

[WATFORD zero]

That will absolutely solve the boat crossings, but not affect the overall immigration figures.

I propose a two part solution.

1a. Make being a parent an attractive proposition. Increased help with childcare, increased flexibility in the workplace etc. Being a parent at the present time is absolutely emotionally and life rewarding, but practically bloody difficult with parents often being short of both time and money.

1b. Enact legislation that forces employers to take in and train those entering the job market for the first time, rather than this current nonsense where employers are paying minimum wage and asking for “3 years experience”. Stop the disconnect between the labour available and what employers are demanding. Employers hate costs, but must bear responsibility for bringing the next generation through into the labour market. Smooth the path. Let’s help bring our own kids through into the labour market, and plug those skills gaps.

2. There are spots in the world, many even within Europe where there’s the need for working age people to join and integrate into communities. Rather than using Rwanda as a stick to beat people with, use diplomacy to discover where people/labour are needed and build voluntary emigration schemes to help people travel, settle and learn the language. I think there are plenty of people here who have enough of a sense of adventure to make a move, but who lack the confidence/resource to navigate the red tape independently. If we up the emigration figure, net migration can fall below zero quite easily.

I honestly believe that the above, coupled with the changes that the Conservatives have already made could swing net migration back to zero or even beyond.

Finally, I can also see why the Conservatives want to limit student visa dependents living in the U.K. to one, our universities long ago lost sight of the fundamentals of education to chase the biggest numbers they can. I don’t have a huge issue with this particular Conservative policy. If after uni people decide they want to build a life here, then absolutely they can apply for a work visa and/or full citizenship and be accepted gladly, but a university course is a fixed length entity, and in the same way that if I had a 2-3 year contract I’d fly home occasionally rather than uproot my family, I do feel the same could/should be the case for international students.

Between @watford zero’s work and the above, I reckon we could get migration down below zero in a fairly straightforward manner without any wankery about Rwanda at all.

I was only addressing the boat crossings

They are valid points that you make, but I'm not sure that with an aging population needing to be supported through Pensions and the NHS that net zero immigration is a realistic target. I do have a simple solution to lowering immigration figures though, and it would only entail reversing one policy introduced by this Government

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

How many usernames has Berkshire Seagull gone through since this one in 2014?

Almost as many as we have had Home Secretaries screaming stop the boats

 

[Colonel Mustard]

That will absolutely solve the boat crossings, but not affect the overall immigration figures.

I propose a two part solution.

1a. Make being a parent an attractive proposition. Increased help with childcare, increased flexibility in the workplace etc. Being a parent at the present time is absolutely emotionally and life rewarding, but practically bloody difficult with parents often being short of both time and money.

1b. Enact legislation that forces employers to take in and train those entering the job market for the first time, rather than this current nonsense where employers are paying minimum wage and asking for “3 years experience”. Stop the disconnect between the labour available and what employers are demanding. Employers hate costs, but must bear responsibility for bringing the next generation through into the labour market. Smooth the path. Let’s help bring our own kids through into the labour market, and plug those skills gaps.

2. There are spots in the world, many even within Europe where there’s the need for working age people to join and integrate into communities. Rather than using Rwanda as a stick to beat people with, use diplomacy to discover where people/labour are needed and build voluntary emigration schemes to help people travel, settle and learn the language. I think there are plenty of people here who have enough of a sense of adventure to make a move, but who lack the confidence/resource to navigate the red tape independently. If we up the emigration figure, net migration can fall below zero quite easily.

I honestly believe that the above, coupled with the changes that the Conservatives have already made could swing net migration back to zero or even beyond.

Finally, I can also see why the Conservatives want to limit student visa dependents living in the U.K. to one, our universities long ago lost sight of the fundamentals of education to chase the biggest numbers they can. I don’t have a huge issue with this particular Conservative policy. If after uni people decide they want to build a life here, then absolutely they can apply for a work visa and/or full citizenship and be accepted gladly, but a university course is a fixed length entity, and in the same way that if I had a 2-3 year contract I’d fly home occasionally rather than uproot my family, I do feel the same could/should be the case for international students.

Between @watford zero’s work and the above, I reckon we could get migration down below zero in a fairly straightforward manner without any wankery about Rwanda at all.

Agree with much of that, especially "There are spots in the world, many even within Europe where there’s the need for working age people to join and integrate into communities. Rather than using Rwanda as a stick to beat people with, use diplomacy to discover where people/labour are needed and build voluntary emigration schemes to help people travel, settle and learn the language."

Up to retirement, I spent a total of more than 20 years as an economic migrant. and think it was the best thing I ever did. My father was an Irish immigrant too. I'd recommend working abroad to anyone who has the opportunity. It depends a lot on whether the would-be migrants are skilled or not. My caveats re skilled people are that

• it would do nothing to reduce what the government calls "irregular immigration". People arriving in small boats or via dubious student status are mostly unskilled or low-skilled. Skilled migrants can usually resettle legally, especially if they're medics or techies (etc.)
• I'm slightly uneasy about encouraging doctors and nurses to leave their home countries where they are probably needed even more than we need them here. It's a different case as it's EU, but I worked with a Hungarian guy for a couple of years who mentioned that his hometown used to have seven doctors surgeries and now they have two, because so many trained doctors and nurses had moved to Germany and the UK. You have to worry what's happening to Indian and African healthcare while their skilled people are (understandably) seeking much better salaries in Europe and the USA. Our gain is their loss.

 

[Randy McNob]

Well said. Most people are more interested in point-scoring and angry whataboutery than actually engaging with the issue to find a solution. I’ve been a member of two political parties (not since the 90s) including quite a long stint with Labour. They did my head in.

Because this is what they want, and in fact where you are wrong is that this isn't a big issue at all. In terms of small boats we're talking about a group of people you put in 1 football stadium, always front and centre of the news agenda, they don't want you to talk about more important issues like the covid enquiry which is barely mentioned (those few people that still find it a major scandal like myself find it gobsmacking what is being unearthed)

The small boats crossings went from virtually none to tens of thousands we see today, starting from around the time Boris Johnson was elected. That's Either a coincidence or deliberately engineered by them and their media machine to validate their ideology. The English channel didn't change in 2019, dinghy technology didn't change in 2019 so it must be latter reason

It's all deflection and distraction and that's despite being a government with reducing immigration as a bedrock of what they were elected on.

We really need a general election, I think millions would crawl through a tunnel of shite ala Andy Dufresne to elect these shysters out

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Because this is what they want, and in fact where you are wrong is that this isn't a big issue at all. In terms of small boats we're talking about a group of people you put in 1 football stadium, always front and centre of the news agenda, they don't want you to talk about more important issues like the covid enquiry which is barely mentioned (those few people that still find it a major scandal like myself find it gobsmacking what is being unearthed)

The small boats crossings went from virtually none to tens of thousands we see today, starting from around the time Boris Johnson was elected. That's Either a coincidence or deliberately engineered by them and their media machine to validate their ideology. The English channel didn't change in 2019, dinghy technology didn't change in 2019 so it must be latter reason

It's all deflection and distraction and that's despite being a government with reducing immigration as a bedrock of what they were elected on.

We really need a general election, I think millions would crawl through a tunnel of shite ala Andy Dufresne to elect these shysters out

I disagree with most of that apart from the final sentence.

The bizarre idea that the government is deliberately engineering 'irregular migration' is a Trump-style conspiracy theory. Not heard that one before! I think the more successful and lucrative boat crossings become, the demand grows, and more traffickers are attracted into the market. Supply and demand. Also, the previous preferred methods like being smuggled on trucks and ferries have become much harder. Security has increased with things like infra-red detectors, and the penalties for deliberate people-smuggling by drivers have got far more severe.

 

[CheeseRolls]

This is clearly a non -issue for the electorate.

Anyone voting labout or Lib Dem knows they are woke and will let anyone into the country who wants to come.

Anyone voting Tory or the latest flavour of Farage Type acceptable face of Fascism is satisfied with increasing immigration, as long as we can pour scorn on them and let them know they are not welcome as they arrive to do the jobs we don't want to do or don't have the skills to do ourselves.

 

[chickens]

Agree with much of that, especially "There are spots in the world, many even within Europe where there’s the need for working age people to join and integrate into communities. Rather than using Rwanda as a stick to beat people with, use diplomacy to discover where people/labour are needed and build voluntary emigration schemes to help people travel, settle and learn the language."

Up to retirement, I spent a total of more than 20 years as an economic migrant. and think it was the best thing I ever did. My father was an Irish immigrant too. I'd recommend working abroad to anyone who has the opportunity. It depends a lot on whether the would-be migrants are skilled or not. My caveats re skilled people are that

• it would do nothing to reduce what the government calls "irregular immigration". People arriving in small boats or via dubious student status are mostly unskilled or low-skilled. Skilled migrants can usually resettle legally, especially if they're medics or techies (etc.)
• I'm slightly uneasy about encouraging doctors and nurses to leave their home countries where they are probably needed even more than we need them here. It's a different case as it's EU, but I worked with a Hungarian guy for a couple of years who mentioned that his hometown used to have seven doctors surgeries and now they have two, because so many trained doctors and nurses had moved to Germany and the UK. You have to worry what's happening to Indian and African healthcare while their skilled people are (understandably) seeking much better salaries in Europe and the USA. Our gain is their loss.

I’m reliably informed that India at least is unaffected. In India, their government has ensured that they have top notch training facilities and lots of available places. India is currently producing doctors that are earning their living all over the world.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It’s confusing to me that people are point scoring saying “well, immigration is soaring, it’s the worst it’s ever been under the Tories”. This is absolutely true, of course.

But then if you say “well, the immigration is out of hand and needs to be brought under control regardless of who is in government”, you are - as one user ‘delicately’ put it in the Netherlands election thread, “xenophobic and racist”.

If people could put party politics aside they’d be stronger and more well-rounded people, regardless of which cabal they align with.

You misunderstand. I am afraid that it is all about party politics.

I am criticizing the weaponization of immigration. I do not think that it is 'out of hand' or that this concept of 'failure to control our borders' is remotely useful. But it isn't me who is claiming this. The party who says it is out of hand is the party that has been in charge for 13 years and entirely responsible for the situation. This party is drawing attention to it not because it is a problem that needs to be resolved, but merely to weaponize it.

I personally expect our borders to be 'controlled' and I don't like to see gangs trafficking people, but this is not something I lie awake about. I am certainly not going to be seduced to vote for a right wing government so we can whisk all immigrants off to Rwanda to solve the 'problem', the very same problem the Tories have created.

The sight of Braverman being Really Angry about a situation her party created is breathtaking. It is extraordinary. It is why I have been tempted to invoke florid analogies. It really is one of the most slickening bits of gaslighting in the history of UK politcs.

And it is working because 'people' are saying 'well what are labour going to do about it? Eh?EH?' as if it is a real problem that has nothing to do with the policies of the government of the last 13 years.

The Tories have had one massive success over the last 13 years. They have done virtually noting about 'securing our borders', spent very little, sat back as 'the boats' has become an issue, seen the 'issue' blown up into being the biggest issue in parts of the media and the minds of your PPF types, the upshot of which has been a single outcome - a queue of sorts and types are pointing their finger at labour and saying 'well, what are you going to do about it? Eh?'. With some adding 'because it is all your fault because you are soft on immigration'.

Jobza goodun.

That's what's annoying me about the 'record numbers'. The weaponization of it..

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

hold on. Sangette refugee camp was closed by French in 2002, the following years saw rules to fine lorry drivers for carrying immigrants, laws changed around claims to discourage asylum seekers. 25% Netherlands just voted for anti-immigration party, Dublin is in flames over an immigrant related incident. this is widespread issue, its not popped up here because of one party. if we keep thinking this is a party political issue, fat chance of doing anything to address it, and fuel the resentment and hostility.

If we set aside how big an existential problem immigration (legal and otherwise) is, and (a slightly different issue) how we deal with asylum seeking, it IS a political issue, because the tories have weaponized it.

However, I completely agree with you that the only way of dealing with the problem, whether one considers it a big or small problem, is to depoliticize it (and engage properly with the EU).

It is the weaponization, as I assume you agree, that is one of the barriers to resolving the situation. And it is one side that has weaponized it. I recall all the scorn poured on labour, at the end of the Blair tenure and the brief Brown era, that they could not provide exact numbers on legal and illegal immigration. The reason, back then, was the numbers were trivial and Labour were not bothered in weaponizing it as an issue. The Tories, however.....the 'bastards' (the hard line Euroskeptics) weaponized it to inform the Brexit narrative.

So whether you like it or not (and I don't) it is now intractably politicized, and will remain so till the likes of Braverman back off (and she won't, will she?).

 

[Randy McNob]

I disagree with most of that apart from the final sentence.

The bizarre idea that the government is deliberately engineering 'irregular migration' is a Trump-style conspiracy theory. Not heard that one before! I think the more successful and lucrative boat crossings become, the demand grows, and more traffickers are attracted into the market. Supply and demand. Also, the previous preferred methods like being smuggled on trucks and ferries have become much harder. Security has increased with things like infra-red detectors, and the penalties for deliberate people-smuggling by drivers have got far more severe.

So you are happy that the moment the Government lurched far right, i.e. the moment we came out of the Brexit Transition period and Johnson took over as leader, the boat crossings suddenly happened when previously it wasn't even a thing and immigration numbers generally increased is just a coincidence?

You see, if they ACTUALLY solved immigration issues, which by the way they could do overnight by hiring more people to decide asylum cases and open safe routes, then they wouldn't be relevant anymore - people would stop talking about immigration and turn their attention to real issues - like cost of living etc... They need to keep immigration a hot topic and position themselves as the anti immigration party - it's not conspiracy it's politiics. It's the same reason why Brexit isn't working and the problems seem unresolvable. Because if it was a success and we could actually move on, then people like Farage become irrelevant, he needs it to not work so he can keep popping up on the news as the Brexit go to guy.

They don't want to stop the boats - they want more boats to come. It wouldn't surprise me if they had Tory party members selling dinghies in Northern France