Ian Tomlinson case. PC Harwood Not Guilty.

[User removed 4]

I doubt the standard of policing has changed significantly over the course of our lifetimes to be honest. It seems to me that policework is always going to attract two extremes that are less prevalent in other vocations: a) the social worker do-gooder who genuinely feels a sense of community, and wants to do his/her best by that community, and b) the bent, violent, gutless bully boy who hides behind the idea of his colleagues watching his back at the expense of professional integrity.

As for this incident, the guy behaved like a thug but I've seen worse and with far less tragic consequences for the victim on a Saturday night. I'm not actually convinced it was an offence worthy of doing a lengthy prison term, but there can be little doubt that he is guilty of unlawfully killing Tomlinson, and as such should expect to be binned from the force and stripped of his pension at an absolute minimum.

The real question to be answered here is why the hell our police forces accept these tossers in the first place.

Believe it or not, I agree with this 100%

 

[User removed 4]

I'd suggest there is far LESS reprehensible behaviour going on by police officers these days, not more. Life On Mars may have been fictional, but there's no denying the police used to find it easy enough to fit people up, to dispense their own sort of justice, to treat people according to their own prejudices and so on. Clearly there are a few rogue types (as in any job), but no way is it more widespread than thirty years ago. As for all this freemasonry rubbish...maybe in the 1980s, but we're a long way past that now.

I can honestly say I have never, ever personally found myself at work in a position where I thought someone was being treated badly, or being the subject of inappropriate language or similar abuse by a colleague of mine. We're under the microscope more now than we've ever been, thanks to the widespread advance of technology (as well as the countless "respect for diversity" policies and procedures that dominate everything we do).

If I was seen or heard using many of the terms I quite regularly see used by other posters on here, I would fully expect to be sacked.

Obviously I don't work for the Met, so I don't know how they'll play it, but I would be somewhat surprised if Simon Harwood has a job at the end of this.

We need more coppers like you EK.

 

[Cadiz Seagull]

"nothing can be wrong, because if it were wrong, people would do something about it. So because nobody is doing anything about it, nothing is wrong. Therefore I need not do anything about it." - Circular logic.

That's not what I said. There are things wrong in the Police force, quite a lot and many of them caused by management.

My point is that the phrase "rotten to the core" is a massive exaggeration and does nothing to help the reasoned argument that the police are far from perfect and changes should be made.

If I lived in a country where I truly believed the police were rotten to the core then I would leave. And no, that's not the reason I left UK.

 

[glasfryn]

my take on this situation is right or wrong what make a "good" copper someone who upholds the law then tell me this why are there "bent" nasty violent coppers in the force surely any others should uphold the law and either bubble them or even in the extreme arrest them.
until that starts to happen our police will never be trusted.
the rotten apples have to be thrown out.
I do feel a little for those who see wrong and feel they cannot do a thing to stop it but it must stop for the police force to have any respect and they do have the power to stop it, its just that they feel they are letting the side down .............they are not they are letting us the public down and more importantly themselves.
the instance would be what were the other officers doing while this was happening if it had been me who attacked an innocent man from the back and knocked him to the ground without any provocation I would have been cuffed and arrested.
good officers cannot contiue to allow this to go on if they do then the term "rotten to the core" will contiue to be used and rightly so

 

[Simster]

My point is that the phrase "rotten to the core" is a massive exaggeration and does nothing to help the reasoned argument that the police are far from perfect and changes should be made.

That's not a point, that's merely an explanation of what you feel "rotten to the core" should mean. I, for one, disagree with you.

To clarify, we've just seen a verdict where a police officer has walked free having sent a man to his death owing to blatent thuggery. Coupled with the fact that no policeman has ever been convicted of manslaughter when in uniform in this country, and the conclusion that the police are looking after their own interests ahead of justice for Tomlinson is not a controversial one to draw. I'm not saying that all police officers are bad people, but this culture of watching each other's backs ahead of social justice needs to be dealt with, as that is what is meant by "rotten to the core" as I see it.

 

[ifuhatepalacestandup]

my take on this situation is right or wrong what make a "good" copper someone who upholds the law then tell me this why are there "bent" nasty violent coppers in the force surely any others should uphold the law and either bubble them or even in the extreme arrest them.
until that starts to happen our police will never be trusted.
the rotten apples have to be thrown out.
I do feel a little for those who see wrong and feel they cannot do a thing to stop it but it must stop for the police force to have any respect and they do have the power to stop it, its just that they feel they are letting the side down .............they are not they are letting us the public down and more importantly themselves.
the instance would be what were the other officers doing while this was happening if it had been me who attacked an innocent man from the back and knocked him to the ground without any provocation I would have been cuffed and arrested.
good officers cannot continue to allow this to go on if they do then the term "rotten to the core" will continue to be used and rightly so

this
If the good coppers want our respect then they have to stand up and be counted at the point where Mr tomlinson was pushed to the ground there are at least 5 other police in close proximity to the incident and not one says or dose anything if i was to walk up and push another member of the public to the ground in front of 5 police officers do you think i would just be able to walk away, if as a good copper you want my respect then earn it by removing the bad apples yourselves
but unfortunately the opposite usually happens in that all 5 of the other officers will mysteriously have been watching the sky and seen nothing, heard nothing, and will say nothing

 

[maltaseagull]

f*** off capitalist lacky.

Yes, I was clearly correct. Limited vocabulary too. Off you go to your demo.

 

[User removed 4]

Yes, I was clearly correct. Limited vocabulary too. Off you go to your demo.

he's being sarcastic mate , looney is one of the "right leaning " posters on her .

 

[vegster]

Interesting back story in The Times today, soon to be ex-PC Harwood had had 10 misconduct allegations against him but none ever proven, and sidestepped a more serious charge by resigning and amazingly re-joining a couple of years later !

Nasty piece of work.

 

[DTES]

Appreciate your opinion on this particular subject, but I would honestly say it's not "some" coppers are decent, but "most" of them. The vast majority.

But unfortunately we all pay for it when the odd idiot slips through the net, because people only remember their behaviour and not the good stuff, and therefore adopt a default position of ACAB, which makes negotiating any situation difficult, no matter how much you want to help.

While I don't think, for a second, that it's the majority of police officers who are "bad", this case is undermined somewhat by the Harwood incident. Yes, Simon Harwood is the one that all the attention is (rightly) focussed on, but watching the video of his actions towards/on Tomlinson - how many of his colleagues stepped in and stopped him? How many pulled him away and told him he was out of order? And how many let him carry on?

 

[rosscrudos]

slightly away from the topic, but I just wanted to share some of my experience with the police (make of it what you will):

Many of my friends are hunt sabs (I used to partake before I moved to Oz). When hunting was legal, there used to be police there EVERY time to help make sure the hunt went ahead as best as possible, and on many occasions wrongly arrested sabs (and in turn had to pay out compension to them!). The only illegal thing you are doing as a sab, is trespassing (something any rambler does quite often!). The phones of hunt sabs were often tapped, to see which hunt we were going to target.

Now hunting is illegal, do any police show up to stop the hunts? No, do they bollocks. Not a plod in sight.

Now can someone explain why the police suddenly aren't doing their job?

 

[StillHateBellotti]

While I don't think, for a second, that it's the majority of police officers who are "bad", this case is undermined somewhat by the Harwood incident. Yes, Simon Harwood is the one that all the attention is (rightly) focussed on, but watching the video of his actions towards/on Tomlinson - how many of his colleagues stepped in and stopped him? How many pulled him away and told him he was out of order? And how many let him carry on?

To be fair having been on the front line during the student riots in full riot gear, when pushing the crowd back, be it a small group or one person you are always watching your own back, I want to get home to my kids! Harwoods actions would have to be justified by him in a court of law. I for one could not say what would be going through his mind, what he has seen or what he has not seen or how he has justified his own use of force. If you are wearing a riot helmet you can only see a small amount in front of you and its difficult on the hearing?

Its difficult to engage in an argument with a colleague when in a public order situation and I have seen fellow officers run away, yes run away, everyone is different. It would have been up to his sergeant or inspector in charge of his PSU to sort him out, but by that time the damage may or may not have been done.

I have used force in London when necessary to protect myself and other members of the public but have always been able to justify it in a court of law.

Having worked the streets of Sussex and having moved to London I can tell you now it is a different kettle of fish in the big smoke and I think bad attitudes exist on both sides. The MET has some very special employees!!!! some who are up their own arse, some who think they are invincible, some who think they can get away with what they want, but then there are others, the majority who get on and do the job to the best of their ability.

I feel in this instance the recruitment process needs to have a complete overhaul because in the end it has resulted in a father loosing his life.

If I had concerns about a fellow colleague I would not think twice about reporting it as in the end it may result in me loosing my life or someone else ultimately loosing their life.

Wait till everyone gets a tazer!

 

[glasfryn]

To be fair having been on the front line during the student riots in full riot gear, when pushing the crowd back, be it a small group or one person you are always watching your own back, I want to get home to my kids! Harwoods actions would have to be justified by him in a court of law. I for one could not say what would be going through his mind, what he has seen or what he has not seen or how he has justified his own use of force. If you are wearing a riot helmet you can only see a small amount in front of you and its difficult on the hearing?

Its difficult to engage in an argument with a colleague when in a public order situation and I have seen fellow officers run away, yes run away, everyone is different. It would have been up to his sergeant or inspector in charge of his PSU to sort him out, but by that time the damage may or may not have been done.

I have used force in London when necessary to protect myself and other members of the public but have always been able to justify it in a court of law.

Having worked the streets of Sussex and having moved to London I can tell you now it is a different kettle of fish in the big smoke and I think bad attitudes exist on both sides. The MET has some very special employees!!!! some who are up their own arse, some who think they are invincible, some who think they can get away with what they want, but then there are others, the majority who get on and do the job to the best of their ability.

I feel in this instance the recruitment process needs to have a complete overhaul because in the end it has resulted in a father loosing his life.

If I had concerns about a fellow colleague I would not think twice about reporting it as in the end it may result in me loosing my life or someone else ultimately loosing their life.

Wait till everyone gets a tazer!

the point is they don't do they THEY should be the ones to weedle out the thugs not wait until some unsuspecting member of the public has to die before they even start thinking about it.
while I was in the prison service I would undoubtedly bubbled another officer who was up to no good simply because he would have made me and others look like idiots who don't give a toss

 

[dingodan]

That's not what I said. There are things wrong in the Police force, quite a lot and many of them caused by management.

My point is that the phrase "rotten to the core" is a massive exaggeration and does nothing to help the reasoned argument that the police are far from perfect and changes should be made.

If I lived in a country where I truly believed the police were rotten to the core then I would leave. And no, that's not the reason I left UK.

It's the reason I am leaving.

 

[Storer 68]

One thing I find hard to agree with, is the way that the defendants previous record is hidden from the jury (in all cases).

I UNDERSTAND the logic, of course, that they are being tried for one specific offence, and that the record is not disclosed, so as to not lead any pre-judgement of the person's character, but I struggle to agree with it.

I sat on a jury a few years ago, for an ABH case - three lads accused of serioously assaulting two others on a night out in Basingstoke. The 'chief' defendant stood in court in his Dad's suit, with sad-and-vunerable expression fixed permanently on his face. He was very clearly guilty from the evidence presented to us, but very nearly got off, as it was difficult to persuade a couple of gullible women amongst us, that this 'poor lad' could possibly be guilty of such nastiness.

After the guilty verdict, they read out his rap sheet, which included TWENTY FOUR separate violent offences.

if you are on a jury you should only be concerned with the case being argued in front of you and not have your decision influenced by knowldge that is outside of that remit. Juries will decide whether you are guilty oor not of the charge brought. Judges will decide what punishment, or not, is appropriate and lawful

 

[dingodan]

this
If the good coppers want our respect then they have to stand up and be counted at the point where Mr tomlinson was pushed to the ground there are at least 5 other police in close proximity to the incident and not one says or dose anything if i was to walk up and push another member of the public to the ground in front of 5 police officers do you think i would just be able to walk away, if as a good copper you want my respect then earn it by removing the bad apples yourselves
but unfortunately the opposite usually happens in that all 5 of the other officers will mysteriously have been watching the sky and seen nothing, heard nothing, and will say nothingView attachment 33340

This 100%.

 

[ifuhatepalacestandup]

if you are on a jury you should only be concerned with the case being argued in front of you and not have your decision influenced by knowldge that is outside of that remit. Juries will decide whether you are guilty oor not of the charge brought. Judges will decide what punishment, or not, is appropriate and lawful

oor ?

 

[StillHateBellotti]

the point is they don't do they THEY should be the ones to weedle out the thugs not wait until some unsuspecting member of the public has to die before they even start thinking about it.
while I was in the prison service I would undoubtedly bubbled another officer who was up to no good simply because he would have made me and others look like idiots who don't give a toss

More than likely with that reported history he would not have told anyone, therefore no-one would know what he was like or what he had done or reported to have done in the past. In the MET you very rarely work with the same person or are on the same van during a protest etc therefore how can you gauge someone after meeting them once! (I have never met this person)

Unfortunately I have never had the displeasure of working with anyone who has done anything to justify reporting him/her.

At the end of the day there are arseholes in every job in every walk of life who abuse positions of trust and processes are in place to report them.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Presumably the jury could not identify a single action (ie being hit with the truncheon) to be the cause of death. agreed that he did not need to be hit with a baton but seems he was hardly a fine specimen of healthy living.........................................

From the BBC Father-of-nine Mr Tomlinson, who was a heavy drinker who had slept rough for a number of years, walked 75 yards before he collapsed

what's that got to do with it you plank! LOOKS LIKE HE WAS ASSAULTED IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE , maybe the jury was cherry picked

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

the blokes f***ed even though he got off, looks like a right arse hole .