seagullsovergrimsby
#cpfctinpotclub
Won't the Met let him tender his resignation first , so as to avoid the palaver of an investigation
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Ian Tomlinson case. PC Harwood Not Guilty.
- Thread starter Leekbrookgull
- Start date
Won't the Met let him tender his resignation first , so as to avoid the palaver of an investigation
father_and_son
Well-known member
I do hope that the 'good' coppers ensure PC Harwood "falls down the stairs on his way to the cells" one evening, just to prove to a clearly doubtful public that they really are interested in justice & integrity and not just looking after their own above all else.
Also, the family should take a civil action against him where the burden of proof becomes balance of probabilities rather than reasonable doubt.
Also, the family should take a civil action against him where the burden of proof becomes balance of probabilities rather than reasonable doubt.
The force is perceived to be rotten to the core these days. I was brought up to respect the police. Life experiences have led me to now have the opposite I have little or no respect for them. I state that as someone who has always been a law abiding person and never been "in trouble".
In this case I hope a private prosecution by the family takes place. His health will not stop them winning, as in "Eggshell skull" rule:
This rule holds one liable for all consequences resulting from his or her tortious (usually negligent) activities leading to an injury to another person, even if the victim suffers an unusually high level of damage (e.g. due to a pre-existing vulnerability or medical condition). The term implies that if a person had a skull as delicate as that of the shell of an egg, and a tortfeasor who was unaware of the condition injured that person's head, causing the skull unexpectedly to break, the defendant would be held liable for all damages resulting from the wrongful contact, even if
such damages were not reasonably foreseeable, or
the tortfeasor did not intend to cause such a severe injury.
In criminal law, the general maxim is that the defendant must "take their victims as they find them", a quotation from the judgment of Lord Justice Lawton in R v. Blaue (1975), in which the defendant was held responsible for killing his victim, despite his contention that her refusal of a blood transfusion constituted novus actus interveniens.
The doctrine is applied in all areas of torts - intentional torts, negligence, and strict liability cases - as well as in criminal law. There is no requirement of physical contact with the victim - if a trespasser's wrongful presence on the victim's property so terrifies the victim that he has a fatal heart attack, the trespasser will be liable for the damages stemming from his original tort. The foundation for this rule is based primarily on policy grounds. The courts do not want the accused to rely on the victim's own vulnerability to avoid liability.
The thin skull rule is not to be confused with the related crumbling skull rule in which the plaintiff suffers from a detrimental position (from a prior injury, for instance) pre-existent to the occurrence of the present tort. In the "crumbling skull" rule, the prior condition is only to be considered with respect to distinguishing it from any new injury arising from the present tort - as a means of apportioning damages in such a way that the defendant would not be liable for placing the plaintiff in a better position than they were in prior to the present tort. [2]
[edit]Case illustrations
In this case I hope a private prosecution by the family takes place. His health will not stop them winning, as in "Eggshell skull" rule:
This rule holds one liable for all consequences resulting from his or her tortious (usually negligent) activities leading to an injury to another person, even if the victim suffers an unusually high level of damage (e.g. due to a pre-existing vulnerability or medical condition). The term implies that if a person had a skull as delicate as that of the shell of an egg, and a tortfeasor who was unaware of the condition injured that person's head, causing the skull unexpectedly to break, the defendant would be held liable for all damages resulting from the wrongful contact, even if
such damages were not reasonably foreseeable, or
the tortfeasor did not intend to cause such a severe injury.
In criminal law, the general maxim is that the defendant must "take their victims as they find them", a quotation from the judgment of Lord Justice Lawton in R v. Blaue (1975), in which the defendant was held responsible for killing his victim, despite his contention that her refusal of a blood transfusion constituted novus actus interveniens.
The doctrine is applied in all areas of torts - intentional torts, negligence, and strict liability cases - as well as in criminal law. There is no requirement of physical contact with the victim - if a trespasser's wrongful presence on the victim's property so terrifies the victim that he has a fatal heart attack, the trespasser will be liable for the damages stemming from his original tort. The foundation for this rule is based primarily on policy grounds. The courts do not want the accused to rely on the victim's own vulnerability to avoid liability.
The thin skull rule is not to be confused with the related crumbling skull rule in which the plaintiff suffers from a detrimental position (from a prior injury, for instance) pre-existent to the occurrence of the present tort. In the "crumbling skull" rule, the prior condition is only to be considered with respect to distinguishing it from any new injury arising from the present tort - as a means of apportioning damages in such a way that the defendant would not be liable for placing the plaintiff in a better position than they were in prior to the present tort. [2]
[edit]Case illustrations
Superphil
Dismember
And this is what people need to think about, a jury has come to this decision, not the government, not the police, no conspiracy.
User removed 4
New member
More delightful behaviour from harwood, how on earth was he still a copper ? I wouldnt say its a majority, but its definitely more than the " odd bad apple" that are bulllys and thugs.
from the telegraph
" In April 2003, PC Harwood applied for a job with Surrey Police as an officer. Despite his record, he got the job and in January 2004 another complaint was made about alleged aggressive behaviour, this time by one of his own colleagues.
They had been sent to a flat owned by a man identified only as BE. It was claimed that PC Harwood had entered the property unnecessarily, grabbed BE by the neck, threw him backwards, punched him and broke a table.
The other officer's shoulder was broken in the fracas and he was forced to take time off work.
He claimed that BE was heard shouting: "I'll f------ have you," to which PC Harwood is alleged to have replied: "Go on then, I'll do you all over again."
The other officer admitted that he was "shocked" by PC Harwood's behaviour and that BE had simply been defending himself.
from the telegraph
" In April 2003, PC Harwood applied for a job with Surrey Police as an officer. Despite his record, he got the job and in January 2004 another complaint was made about alleged aggressive behaviour, this time by one of his own colleagues.
They had been sent to a flat owned by a man identified only as BE. It was claimed that PC Harwood had entered the property unnecessarily, grabbed BE by the neck, threw him backwards, punched him and broke a table.
The other officer's shoulder was broken in the fracas and he was forced to take time off work.
He claimed that BE was heard shouting: "I'll f------ have you," to which PC Harwood is alleged to have replied: "Go on then, I'll do you all over again."
The other officer admitted that he was "shocked" by PC Harwood's behaviour and that BE had simply been defending himself.
Cadiz Seagull
Grey bearded old man
I doubt that many people SERIOUSLY believe this,
Bad apples? Yes
More bad apples than their used to be? Yes
More bad apples than their should be? Yes
Too many "bent" coppers? Yes.
Some police officers who should be kicked out? Yes
But rotten to the core? Absolutely not. This would mean a large proportion were "rotten" and I simply don't believe that.
A minority, far too many, yes I'll go along with.
But most of them are reasonably normal human beings trying to do a very difficult job as well as they can, often under difficult and dangerous circumstances.
maltaseagull
Well-known member
I am not agreeing with the outcome here but just referring to your choice of words.
Is your second name left??
I agree that there are a lot less 'bad' or 'bent' police officers than people like to make out.
From my experience, a far bigger problem is the significant minority who are lazy and/or stupid. Apologies to the rest.
NickBHAFC18
New member
Stuff like this is one of the reasons the police force is slowly loosing the respect of the people. My father was in the force a while back, but quit due to the way it was heading and he'd had enough of everyone in the street looking at him like shit.
looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
f*** off capitalist lacky.
Inquest ruled that Tomlinson was unlawfully killed, which would mean Tomlinson was guilty of manslaughter. Under same burden of proof he has now been found not guilty. Of course jury didn't get to hear that the original patholigist was as incompetent stooge who got the met off in several other dubious cases, or that Tomlinson has a record of being a duplicitous violent c@#* and should in no way have been on the force.
The civil suit sounds like a slam dunk. Would expect Harwood to be off sick before any internal disciplinary action can be taken.
The civil suit sounds like a slam dunk. Would expect Harwood to be off sick before any internal disciplinary action can be taken.
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I doubt the standard of policing has changed significantly over the course of our lifetimes to be honest. It seems to me that policework is always going to attract two extremes that are less prevalent in other vocations: a) the social worker do-gooder who genuinely feels a sense of community, and wants to do his/her best by that community, and b) the bent, violent, gutless bully boy who hides behind the idea of his colleagues watching his back at the expense of professional integrity.
As for this incident, the guy behaved like a thug but I've seen worse and with far less tragic consequences for the victim on a Saturday night. I'm not actually convinced it was an offence worthy of doing a lengthy prison term, but there can be little doubt that he is guilty of unlawfully killing Tomlinson, and as such should expect to be binned from the force and stripped of his pension at an absolute minimum.
The real question to be answered here is why the hell our police forces accept these tossers in the first place.
As for this incident, the guy behaved like a thug but I've seen worse and with far less tragic consequences for the victim on a Saturday night. I'm not actually convinced it was an offence worthy of doing a lengthy prison term, but there can be little doubt that he is guilty of unlawfully killing Tomlinson, and as such should expect to be binned from the force and stripped of his pension at an absolute minimum.
The real question to be answered here is why the hell our police forces accept these tossers in the first place.
dingodan
New member
- Feb 16, 2011
- 10,080
Freemasons in the police leading the attack on David Cameron's riot response
Leading police officers have set up a national Masonic lodge where they can meet in secret in defiance of fears about the influence of the secret society on the criminal justice system.
The founding members include senior officials from the Police Federation, the police staff association, which is currently fighting the Government over its plans to cut budgets.
The new Masonic lodge is led by John Tully, a Metropolitan Police officer, who has given numerous interviews in recent days accusing the Prime Minister of "fighting violence, arson and looting on our city streets with sound-bites".
Other founder members include officers from the Metropolitan Police, Essex Police, Thames Valley Police and from other forces including Northumbria, Dyfed Powys, South Wales, South Yorkshire and even a high ranking officer from the Royal Gibraltar Police.
The "Sine Favore" Lodge was opened despite the conclusions of a Parliamentary inquiry which warned of public fears that "Freemasonry can have an unhealthy influence on the criminal justice system".
The inquiry followed questions about masonic involvement in the abandonment of an investigation into a shoot-to-kill policy in Northern Ireland and with the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad, which was disbanded after evidence of police malpractice.
Membership is open to all serving and retired officers across Britain and others working alongside the police, including lawyers, criminologists and even the financial advisers who manage officers' retirement plans.
The idea for the new police Masonic lodge grew out of a series unofficial get-togethers in hotel bars during Police Federation annual conferences.
Masonic rules require members to do all they can to support each other, to look after each other and to keep each others' lawful secrets.
New members of the so-called Brotherhood are blindfolded, a hangman's noose placed around their necks and they are warned their throat will be slit and their tongue torn out if they break their oath. Critics argue this could put them at odds with discharging their duty to serve the public.
The inquiry by the Home Affairs Select Committee in 1998 called for a public register of police officers who joined the Freemasons, although in the end the then Labour government proposed that officers could make voluntary disclosures about their membership. Few did.
The new "Sine Favore" lodge, is named after the Latin motto of the Police Federation, "Without Fear, Without Favour".
The founders include Police Federation Treasurer Martyn Mordecai, John Giblin, chairman of the Federation's Sergeants Central Committee, and Steve Williams, general secretary of the Federation's Inspectors Central Committee.
Earlier this year Mr Giblin told the Federation's annual conference that government ministers "hate the police service" and wanted to "destroy" it.
Other founding members include solicitor Tristan Hallam, a personal injury lawyer who specialises, according to his firm Russell Jones and Walker, in "road traffic accidents and public liability cases for both private clients and associations including the Police Federation".
Mr Hallam said: "Membership of any organisation is a personal choice. Russell Jones & Walker are aware of my membership."
Stewart Imbimbo, an ex-Thames Valley police officer and now a senior official at Milton Keynes council, Robert Taylor, a financial adviser, Eric Misselke, director of a police credit union which provides cheap loans, savings accounts and insurance, and the Metropolitan Police's resident criminologist Dr Attilio Grandani.
Dr Grandani sits on the Metropolitan Police Authority's equality and diversity sub-committee and is behind the Met's new controversial statistical-led policing model, which aims to combat areas of high crime as opposed to more thinly spread bobbies-on-the-beat territorial policing.
Lodge number 9856 was officially opened by a senior Masonic official, Russell Race. He is the Metropolitan Grand Master, head of the Grand Lodge of London, a corporate financier and chairman of a construction firm behind the huge Westfield shopping centre in west London and The Pinnacle office development, which, when complete, will be the tallest building in the City of London.
The lodge is based at 10 Duke Street in central London, which is also the headquarters of the Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree, one of the most important and mysterious bodies in international Masonic circles, which has an elite membership of only 75 people.
The building, known as Grand East by Masons, contains the "Black Room", the "Red Room" and a "Chamber of Death", used for Masonic rituals.
The Police Federation last night refused to discuss whether any of its officials had disclosed their involvement with Freemasonary.
A spokesman said: "Being a member of any organisation is a matter for the individual, so long as membership of that organisation does not compromise their duties and responsibilities as a police officer."
Lodge Secretary Mr Tully, vice chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation refused to comment.
Freemasons in the police leading the attack on David Cameron's riot response - Telegraph
Leading police officers have set up a national Masonic lodge where they can meet in secret in defiance of fears about the influence of the secret society on the criminal justice system.
The founding members include senior officials from the Police Federation, the police staff association, which is currently fighting the Government over its plans to cut budgets.
The new Masonic lodge is led by John Tully, a Metropolitan Police officer, who has given numerous interviews in recent days accusing the Prime Minister of "fighting violence, arson and looting on our city streets with sound-bites".
Other founder members include officers from the Metropolitan Police, Essex Police, Thames Valley Police and from other forces including Northumbria, Dyfed Powys, South Wales, South Yorkshire and even a high ranking officer from the Royal Gibraltar Police.
The "Sine Favore" Lodge was opened despite the conclusions of a Parliamentary inquiry which warned of public fears that "Freemasonry can have an unhealthy influence on the criminal justice system".
The inquiry followed questions about masonic involvement in the abandonment of an investigation into a shoot-to-kill policy in Northern Ireland and with the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad, which was disbanded after evidence of police malpractice.
Membership is open to all serving and retired officers across Britain and others working alongside the police, including lawyers, criminologists and even the financial advisers who manage officers' retirement plans.
The idea for the new police Masonic lodge grew out of a series unofficial get-togethers in hotel bars during Police Federation annual conferences.
Masonic rules require members to do all they can to support each other, to look after each other and to keep each others' lawful secrets.
New members of the so-called Brotherhood are blindfolded, a hangman's noose placed around their necks and they are warned their throat will be slit and their tongue torn out if they break their oath. Critics argue this could put them at odds with discharging their duty to serve the public.
The inquiry by the Home Affairs Select Committee in 1998 called for a public register of police officers who joined the Freemasons, although in the end the then Labour government proposed that officers could make voluntary disclosures about their membership. Few did.
The new "Sine Favore" lodge, is named after the Latin motto of the Police Federation, "Without Fear, Without Favour".
The founders include Police Federation Treasurer Martyn Mordecai, John Giblin, chairman of the Federation's Sergeants Central Committee, and Steve Williams, general secretary of the Federation's Inspectors Central Committee.
Earlier this year Mr Giblin told the Federation's annual conference that government ministers "hate the police service" and wanted to "destroy" it.
Other founding members include solicitor Tristan Hallam, a personal injury lawyer who specialises, according to his firm Russell Jones and Walker, in "road traffic accidents and public liability cases for both private clients and associations including the Police Federation".
Mr Hallam said: "Membership of any organisation is a personal choice. Russell Jones & Walker are aware of my membership."
Stewart Imbimbo, an ex-Thames Valley police officer and now a senior official at Milton Keynes council, Robert Taylor, a financial adviser, Eric Misselke, director of a police credit union which provides cheap loans, savings accounts and insurance, and the Metropolitan Police's resident criminologist Dr Attilio Grandani.
Dr Grandani sits on the Metropolitan Police Authority's equality and diversity sub-committee and is behind the Met's new controversial statistical-led policing model, which aims to combat areas of high crime as opposed to more thinly spread bobbies-on-the-beat territorial policing.
Lodge number 9856 was officially opened by a senior Masonic official, Russell Race. He is the Metropolitan Grand Master, head of the Grand Lodge of London, a corporate financier and chairman of a construction firm behind the huge Westfield shopping centre in west London and The Pinnacle office development, which, when complete, will be the tallest building in the City of London.
The lodge is based at 10 Duke Street in central London, which is also the headquarters of the Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree, one of the most important and mysterious bodies in international Masonic circles, which has an elite membership of only 75 people.
The building, known as Grand East by Masons, contains the "Black Room", the "Red Room" and a "Chamber of Death", used for Masonic rituals.
The Police Federation last night refused to discuss whether any of its officials had disclosed their involvement with Freemasonary.
A spokesman said: "Being a member of any organisation is a matter for the individual, so long as membership of that organisation does not compromise their duties and responsibilities as a police officer."
Lodge Secretary Mr Tully, vice chairman of the Metropolitan Police Federation refused to comment.
Freemasons in the police leading the attack on David Cameron's riot response - Telegraph
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Seagull over Canaryland
Well-known member
Ok the video evidence strongly suggests that the PC was responsible, but the Jury was almost certainly directed by the Judge that a guilty verdict must only be determined on the basis of them believing the evidence showed defendant was responsible for the death 'beyond reasonable doubt' . Secondly there is the possibility that if an unanimous verdict could not be agreed by the Jury that the Judge may accept a majority verdict, which always leaves a question hanging over the outcome. Finally if the PC had been found guilty when there was some doubt as to whether his actions directly killed Tomlinson then it opens the door for a potential appeal.
Not an easy decision for a Jury but if based on the burden of proof then they have no choice to find the defendant not guilty, however that may appear to those outside the Court.
Leekbrookgull
Well-known member
- Thread starter
- #57
Surely the Met will drop ASAP ? After all 'Not Guilty' oh really. Then take alook at this CH4 report and make your own mind up. It seem to me Harwood finds confrontation a real 'buzz' ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqsk6LT0SZA&feature=related
Was not Was
Loitering with intent
- Jul 31, 2003
- 1,607
Well, yes, but ...
which is pretty salient to the case, isn't it?
I've been on a jury and found it impressively objective. So why not treat jurors like adults and let them have relevant information?
Won't the Met let him tender his resignation first , so as to avoid the palaver of an investigation
Maybe they'll let him join Surrey Police again - that's how he got out of his previous, err, 'bother'.
Indeed. tomlonson was able to walk 75 yards by himself afyter being hit with the truncheon before he collaped . i would thik that any decent barrister could argue that introduces sufficient doubt into the cause of death.
err think you mean Harwood. Tomlinson is ever so slightly DEAD