I believe in a conspiracy to establish a New World Order - Am I Nuts?

[beorhthelm]

the funny thing about conspiracy theory is that always seems to pick up on the spirit of the time wink, whatever the fear is at the time. There was communism, ufos, JFK, the industrial military complex, public health, AIDs. With the collapse of communism and only one super power there was the "policeman of the world" and "new world order" took up new interest, then 9/11 and now banks. some how all weaved together into one single overriding objective, going back centuries.

thing i never get is, if the hidden "government" is so powerful to impose their will on what governments become the face of power, to orchestrate all these events, what are they trying to achieve? what more power are they trying to obtain?

i'm wondering if the conspiracists are part of the NWO, creating a countercultre to seed confusion amongst the general public, who otherwise might just not give a shit about any of this. no point being in charge if no one knows you are.

 

[dingodan]

Oh for shit's sake. You are SERIOUSLY citing a ron paul speech as some kind of evidence? Ron f***ing paul. Are you for f***ing real?
I wouldn't believe it if that f***ing gimp told me it was sunny outside even if I were in the middle of the sahara at midday.

I will never convince you that they're not taking over the world to install the nwo but I will bet everything I own on one thing. This nwo you fear so much and which every wing-nut in the world blethers on about instead of getting on with living will not take over the world in my lifetime. Not will they in your lifetime. Nor will they in your childrens lifetime. Or in fact your grandchildrens lifetimes should you have any.

Now you can carry on with the crazy and worry about this nwo which you are so scared of for some reason or you can apply occam's razor and get on with your life.

I was actually drawing your attention to a quote which Ron Paul sites in the video. He quotes Professor Carol Quigley, who was Bill Clintons mentor at Georgetown University, and who was the historian for the Council on Foriegn Relations.

He states: "The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy."

- Carrol Quigley, Tragedy and Hope.

I was suggesting that, as I said, our Coke Vs Pepsi politics is a product of this ideological viewpoint, which by necessity is concealed so as to maintain the illusion of choice and democracy.

I would make a point about Occams Razor. Translated Occums Razor asks: "what is the most simple explanation?". This is quite a specific tool. For example, molten metal was found under each of the collapsed buildings at ground zero. It was present weeks after the event. Occams Razor is designed for problems like this, i.e. what is the most likely explanation for molen metal to be present under WTC1, 2 and 7?

Occams Razor is not a tool for asking "Is there a conspiracy to establish a New World Order". Occams Razor is a tool for ascertaining "why" not "if".

If you were to try to apply this tool to the above question, are you saying conspiracy is a complex explanation, where no conspiracy is a simple one? Why? Certainly no conspiracy is what we are told, but does purely what we are told constitute the simplest explanation?

I dont think Occam meant for this tool to be used to argue generally that "things are just what they seem to be".

“Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity.” Marshall McLuhan
“The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.” Adolf Hitler

 

[beorhthelm]

For example, molten metal was found under each of the collapsed buildings at ground zero. It was present weeks after the event. Occams Razor is designed for problems like this, i.e. what is the most likely explanation for molen metal to be present under WTC1, 2 and 7?

there was a fire and a building collapse. lots of metal, already hot/burning, is given a massive energy increase from the collapse is then insulted by the rubble above. note, the rubble has to provide insulation to allow molten metal to persist in any scenario, so really the question is how was the metal made molten, not how come it was molten weeks later. occam points back to the fire.

what do you suggest?

 

[Brightonfan1983]

You seem very articulate dingodan. Couldn't you put it to greater use? I'm sure you could find information on the internet concerning, for example, how they now construct skyscrapers in NY so that they don't fall down when struck by two gi-bloody-normous aeroplanes laden with hundreds and hundreds of gallons of very flammable liquid (that sounds to me as if they'd be capable of burning through some metal); that would be quite an interesting read if you were to explain that in layman's terms...actually I might just have a look at that myself.

 

[brunswick]

new world order is very very real....the media is controlled by 5 profit making corporations with links to the big pharms, banks control govs, terror is a lie etc etc.

once one joins all the dots, and this can ONLY be done by the self, then a big click comes.

building 7 is one very tangible way in to the game of join the dots

 

[dingodan]

there was a fire and a building collapse. lots of metal, already hot/burning, is given a massive energy increase from the collapse is then insulted by the rubble above. note, the rubble has to provide insulation to allow molten metal to persist in any scenario, so really the question is how was the metal made molten, not how come it was molten weeks later. occam points back to the fire.

what do you suggest?

I dont suggest anything, I was highlighting the different types of questions, 1 appropriate and 1 not.

The molten metal does puzzle me though, conventional fires are not hot enough to melt steel and no amount of exposure can change that. "energy increase"? you mean the collapses made the fires hotter? A fire "well insulated" by rubble? wouldnt you say that the better the insulation the more starved of oxygen the fire?

This is where Occams Razor is appropriate and what it should tell you is that "energy increase" and "well insulated" fires melting steel are probably suggestions that should be dismissed because they require too much extrapolation, they are not simple. The simple explanation is that something was present which was hot enough to produce molten steel (without defying physics). This is how Occams Razor cuts through bullshit and it does so in support of a dismissal of the official version of events.

 

[dingodan]

You seem very articulate dingodan. Couldn't you put it to greater use? I'm sure you could find information on the internet concerning, for example, how they now construct skyscrapers in NY so that they don't fall down when struck by two gi-bloody-normous aeroplanes laden with hundreds and hundreds of gallons of very flammable liquid (that sounds to me as if they'd be capable of burning through some metal); that would be quite an interesting read if you were to explain that in layman's terms...actually I might just have a look at that myself.

To save you some time, you could answer your question with the periodic table. Look up the melting point of steel, and compare it with the burning temperature of jet fuel (kerosene).

Shimples.

 

[Dominoid]

How do we know the molten metal was steel though? It doesn't have to be from teh building constructions, it could have been from office equipment for example.

 

[beorhthelm]

new world order is very very real....the media is controlled by 5 profit making corporations with links to the big pharms, banks control govs, terror is a lie etc etc.

so, they are here and in charge. western world seems generally to be a good place to be. i think i can live with those pesky profit making media corporations, the pharmaceticals and the banks. maybe a little less of the banks.

The molten metal does puzzle me though, conventional fires are not hot enough to melt steel and no amount of exposure can change that. "energy increase"? you mean the collapses made the fires hotter? A fire "well insulated" by rubble? wouldnt you say that the better the insulation the more starved of oxygen the fire?

This is where Occams Razor is appropriate and what it should tell you is that "energy increase" and "well insulated" fires melting steel are probably suggestions that should be dismissed because they require too much extrapolation, they are not simple. The simple explanation is that something was present which was hot enough to produce molten steel (without defying physics). This is how Occams Razor cuts through bullshit and it does so in support of a dismissal of the official version of events.

i think you miss the point. for one thing, burning (i dont know the proper chemical terminology, exothermic?) doesnt necessarily mean oxygen (that would be specifically combustion), and even were O is used in the reaction it doesnt need to be atmospheric. then the energy increase is similar (same as?) to pressure, the engery of the fall has to go somewhere, which alters the temperatures involved in there. so yes, the collapse would make materials hotter. given an already burning/extremly hot material confined and enclosed with several hundred tons of presure, it would create a furnace like condition.

but this is too much, not as simple as we might like. back to start, what we have is molten metal weeks later. how did it stay hot? if we reject the insulation above we have no explaination. ask a chemist/physicist how it would work out, i dont know. however i do know the initially "simple" explaination of getting the steel hot enough through some method other than kersone initiated fire and collapse, needs many additional requirements to get that "something" in place, the entities are multiplied. so the razor needs to prune...

you are looking at "how did the metal get that hot". im looking at "how did the metal stay that hot". i would suggest the answer to one offers clue if not the answer to the other.

 

[dingodan]

however i do know the initially "simple" explaination of getting the steel hot enough through some method other than kersone initiated fire and collapse, needs many additional requirements to get that "something" in place, the entities are multiplied.

The devil is in the detail. Occams razor is not concerned with the fact that you cannot account for how other materials might have been placed there, or how a secret could be kept and all of this stuff. It is only interested in the evidence, "what is true?" not "what is plausable?" or "what is believable?".

Steel melts at just under 2,800 degrees, jet fuel burns at just over 1,500 degrees. The burning jet fuel should have been the hottest temperature present on the day, not even close to hot enough to create molten steel. Then again the steel apparently lost all structural strength (on all floors simultaneously) from the 1,500 degrees created by the crashes, so clearly physics is wrong.

 

[beorhthelm]

The devil is in the detail. Occams razor is not concerned with the fact that you cannot account for how other materials might have been placed there, or how a secret could be kept and all of this stuff. It is only interested in the evidence, "what is true?" not "what is plausable?" or "what is believable?".

Steel melts at just under 2,800 degrees, jet fuel burns at just over 1,500 degrees. The burning jet fuel should have been the hottest temperature present on the day, not even close to hot enough to create molten steel. Then again the steel apparently lost all structural strength (on all floors simultaneously) from the 1,500 degrees created by the crashes, so clearly physics is wrong.

the physics isnt wrong, just the understanding and application. you dont need steel to be melted to the point of liquification for it to lose structrual strength. its will be quite malleable at a significantly lower temperature. you clearly want to avoid addressing the point about how it stays hot, presumably because whatever youtube vids you watch doesnt answer this. i also note you dont want to mention any alternatives to how the metal got hot, i wonder why that is? Occam doesnt tell us what is true, just points us to what is most likly false so we can eliminate. please dont keep mis-using.

 

[Brovion]

...
i'm wondering if the conspiracists are part of the NWO, creating a countercultre to seed confusion amongst the general public, who otherwise might just not give a shit about any of this. no point being in charge if no one knows you are.

Oooh good point. So dingodan and colinz are actually agents of the New World Order who've been sent onto NSC by their superiors to spread fear and mistrust and to get us to doubt our own sanity.

*Strokes chin thoughtfully*

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Well you may not be nuts to believe it as Im sure there are lot of people out there who would wish for it but THEY would be nuts if they think they could carry it out. No one nation has ever got out smelling of roses from attempts to dominate:

US - Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq
China - Korea
Russia - Afghanistan

to name but few and the blasting of economic complacency certainly dealt a blow to the theory of economic domination. Its laughable that the US may be trying to create their own EU, seeing as the last financial crisis brought into question the existance of such an organisation.

So NUTS? - you, no.... anyone planning it - YES

 

[colinz]

Oooh good point. So dingodan and colinz are actually agents of the New World Order who've been sent onto NSC by their superiors to spread fear and mistrust and to get us to doubt our own sanity

Brovion where have I suggested about the existance of a "New World Order"
All I have done is point out how English speaking Western Governments, are mainly controlled by the think tanks through their captured political puppets.
In fact it's probably more of an old world order stretching back to WW1 & the Balfour Declaration.