[Albion] Hürzeler’s (Brighton) Tactics

[raymondo]

Probably gonna get ripped to shreds for even suggesting this, but it's a thought I've just had in relation to the whole "high line, but lack of pace" discussion above:

Can Hinshelwood play CB? I don't know enough about his youth-team career to know whether it's a string he has in his bow (he's obviously very versatile though).

I think he's too lightweight

 

[raymondo]

Post injury he appears to have lost the confidence or physicality to run at the speed he once did. Plus so often poor decision making defensively. Does his contract expire next June anyway?

And so many attackers are just physically bigger than him.

 

[raymondo]

All analysis of playing a high press, talks of some defence/midfield back getting back, in shape, when countered.

We’re not going to win and retain possession for 90 minutes in the opposition half. We’ll lose the ball.

Shirley we need an insurance policy of very switched on players and some pace, to achieve the above.

Exactly, we WILL lose the ball, every team does, even the best. We do need a better insurance,as you say, for when that happens.

 

[Withdean11]

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a high line (certainly if we want to be a pressing team) but both Dunk and Webster are not suited to it. I hate to say it, but i think a strong quick defender to be first choice partner to JPVH should be deemed a priority signing.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

The way I see it .... FH's approach worked very very well in Bundesliga 2 where teams just don't have the ability to play 2 quick passes to beat the press.

Here they do have that ability. Even Forest and those mid to low ranked teams have the players to play through our midfield 3 or 4 times in a game. And that equals a goal. Playing through our midfield 15 to 20 times equals 4 or 5 goals. Against a team who defend 20 yards further back, that would only equal probably 1 goal

So what to do? FH is right to say that it's also getting us goals. We could double down and have high scoring games every week. Some we'd win

My prediction is that he'll temper it. I think we'll let their defenders have the ball, defend 35 yards from goal and press them once they get to the half way line. I reckon the players have told him this isn't working. RDZ would have had them running up Ditchling Beacon for that. Hurzeler, for better or worse, will listen

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I hate to say it, but i think a strong quick defender to be first choice partner to JPVH should be deemed a priority signing.

This is what I just don't get. Once we're sprung on the half way line, JPVH isn't getting back, any centre back we can realistically sign isn't getting back

The average centre back is probably 20% slower than the average forward.

I keep hearing about these fantastical centre backs we should have signed in the summer who have all of JPHV or Dunks defensive qualities, but can catch Jackson over a 30 yard sprint. I'm yet to hear a suggestion about who these players should be.

And if you look at comparable teams to us, their defenders aren't any quicker. Similar level sides are playing players like Bassey, Mavrapanos, Maguire, Burn at centre back. All probably slower than what we've got. The trick is finding ways of protecting centre backs more. No centre back wants to be sprinting back from half way on the cover

 

[PlayMoran]

This is what I just don't get. Once we're sprung on the half way line, JPVH isn't getting back, any centre back we can realistically sign isn't getting back

The average centre back is probably 20% slower than the average forward.

I keep hearing about these fantastical centre backs we should have signed in the summer who have all of JPHV or Dunks defensive qualities, but can catch Jackson over a 30 yard sprint. I'm yet to hear a suggestion about who these players should be.

And if you look at comparable teams to us, their defenders aren't any quicker. Similar level sides are playing players like Bassey, Mavrapanos, Maguire, Burn at centre back. All probably slower than what we've got. The trick is finding ways of protecting centre backs more. No centre back wants to be sprinting back from half way on the cover

Depends on how much Brighton want to spend.

• Badiashile - 23 years old - Left footed - Quick and good on the ball

He's had a mixed spell at Chelsea, but still has potential. Chelsea might be willing to sell for a reasonable price.​

• Hato - 18 years old - Left footed - Quick and exceptional on the ball

The type of player you need to sign now before a European heavyweight swoops in. He's at Ajax.​

• Ndicka - 25 years old - Left footed - Reasonably fast and good on the ball

Roma signed him on a free almost 18 months ago. They'll make a pure profit on him.​

Pace is essential for a CB in modern football. It's actually essential for nearly every position now due to the speed of the game and athletic ability of most players. You have to exceptional at some other aspects of the game to counter a lack of speed. Kroos being technically gifted and has a high football IQ. Groß similar.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Depends on how much Brighton want to spend.

• Badiashile - 23 years old - Left footed - Quick and good on the ball

He's had a mixed spell at Chelsea, but still has potential. Chelsea might be willing to sell for a reasonable price.​

I guess Chelsea would sell, still has 7 years to run on his deal and isn't making their squad, probably because he was a total liability in his first season there. Even if we could turn him around, would we match Chelsea wages and Chelsea contract length? I strongly doubt it, so he has no reason to leave

• Hato - 18 years old - Left footed - Quick and exceptional on the ball

The type of player you need to sign now before a European heavyweight swoops in. He's at Ajax.​

Even we're not throwing an 18 year old centre back on the in the PL. If we did manage to sign him, i'll take you at your word that he'll be a PL standard player in the future

• Ndicka - 25 years old - Left footed - Reasonably fast and good on the ball

Roma signed him on a free almost 18 months ago. They'll make a pure profit on him.​

Isn't that the guy with the cardiac issues?

Sorry, not looking to beat down your suggestions. But I still think this the, "we can get defenders as good as Dunk or JPVH, just a bit faster" and everything will be fine is massively oversimplifying. We know our recruitment team are good, they knew in the summer how we were going to play, we know we can land targets quite a lot of the time.

 

[fleet]

It doesn't matter how fast a defender is in a straight race, if the forward has started running in his own half to chase a long pass, and if our defender has to turn on the half way line and then start running, there is zero chance of catching the forward.

 

[Withdean11]

It doesn't matter how fast a defender is in a straight race, if the forward has started running in his own half to chase a long pass, and if our defender has to turn on the half way line and then start running, there is zero chance of catching the forward.

Straight line pace is only a small part of what i mean by 'quick defender".

I'm much more interested in how quickly they move over 2-5 yards to make an interception or to play the attacker offside. They need to be quick on their feet. Something our current defenders lack.

Recovery pace should only be seen as a back up.

 

[The Fits]

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[PlayMoran]

​

I guess Chelsea would sell, still has 7 years to run on his deal and isn't making their squad, probably because he was a total liability in his first season there. Even if we could turn him around, would we match Chelsea wages and Chelsea contract length? I strongly doubt it, so he has no reason to leave


Even we're not throwing an 18 year old centre back on the in the PL. If we did manage to sign him, i'll take you at your word that he'll be a PL standard player in the future


Isn't that the guy with the cardiac issues?

Sorry, not looking to beat down your suggestions. But I still think this the, "we can get defenders as good as Dunk or JPVH, just a bit faster" and everything will be fine is massively oversimplifying. We know our recruitment team are good, they knew in the summer how we were going to play, we know we can land targets quite a lot of the time.

The recruitment team can make mistakes.

I think they got last season's summer window horribly wrong in terms of midfielders. Dahoud and Milner were poor acquisitions to replace Caicedo and Mac Allister. Baleba was signed for the future, which is working out now. But if left Brighton short in midfield last season.

It's possible that the CB area was overlooked this summer. A lot of attacking midfielders/wingers were signed. Some for the future.

Badiashile is available for around €20 million, which is worth a punt.

Hato could be a generational talent. It's doubtful that he'd even join Brighton, but could possibly see it as a good learning environment before moving on at 21.

Ndicka suffered a collapsed lung from a challenge. He seems to be fine now.

Igor could still, in theory, come good. But it's hard to see him getting a run of games due to Dunk being the captain.

 

[Milano]

We do have a strong and pretty quick CB who could play next to JPvH - Igor. It won't happen because a) Dunk, & b) he's as error prone as Webster.

The other issue with the high line is that it gives the attacking team a margin for error with the through ball as it takes the keeper out of it; if you drop 15 yards then the ball in behind has to be far more accurate to avaoid the keeper sweeping up.

 

[Swegulls]

This is what I just don't get. Once we're sprung on the half way line, JPVH isn't getting back, any centre back we can realistically sign isn't getting back

The average centre back is probably 20% slower than the average forward.

I keep hearing about these fantastical centre backs we should have signed in the summer who have all of JPHV or Dunks defensive qualities, but can catch Jackson over a 30 yard sprint. I'm yet to hear a suggestion about who these players should be.

And if you look at comparable teams to us, their defenders aren't any quicker. Similar level sides are playing players like Bassey, Mavrapanos, Maguire, Burn at centre back. All probably slower than what we've got. The trick is finding ways of protecting centre backs more. No centre back wants to be sprinting back from half way on the cover

You are spot on, there are no such defenders that can turn 180 degrees and still catch random forward. Not even someone from the track and field arena would make it.

 

[Wardy's twin]

This is what I just don't get. Once we're sprung on the half way line, JPVH isn't getting back, any centre back we can realistically sign isn't getting back

The average centre back is probably 20% slower than the average forward.

I keep hearing about these fantastical centre backs we should have signed in the summer who have all of JPHV or Dunks defensive qualities, but can catch Jackson over a 30 yard sprint. I'm yet to hear a suggestion about who these players should be.

And if you look at comparable teams to us, their defenders aren't any quicker. Similar level sides are playing players like Bassey, Mavrapanos, Maguire, Burn at centre back. All probably slower than what we've got. The trick is finding ways of protecting centre backs more. No centre back wants to be sprinting back from half way on the cover

In previous years we had either Lamptey or Pervis who could cover, both have lost that speed. So we don't necessarily need a fast centre back but we need some someone who can cover.

 

[PlayMoran]

4-2-3-1:

Welbeck

Mitoma-----J.Pedro-----Minteh

Wieffer-----Baleba

Kardıoğlu------Igor----van Hecke----Veltman

Verbruggen

4-3-2-1:

Ferguson

J.Pedro----------Rutter

Baleba-----Wieffer-----Ayari

Estupiñán-----Igor-----van Hecke----Hinshelwood

Verbruggen

4-3-3:

Mitoma------J.Pedro-----Minteh

Baleba----Wieffer----O'Riley

Kardıoğlu-----Igor-----van Hecke-----Veltman

Verbruggen
​

I'd like to see him try a few of these varaiations over the course of the season. Depends on the opposition.

I think that 4-3-3 could be excellent when O'Riley returns.

​

 

[Gabbiano]

In previous years we had either Lamptey or Pervis who could cover, both have lost that speed. So we don't necessarily need a fast centre back but we need some someone who can cover.

Has Pervis lost his speed, or simply forgotten that he also has defensive duties? Always caught upfield, but then maybe Dunk or Baleba are meant to be covering when he does that?

 

[Bold Seagull]

From Barney Ronay in the Guardian:

True, it helps if an opposition manager chooses to shoot a whaling harpoon through his own foot, which is basically what Fabian Hürzeler did here by playing if not the stupidest high defensive line of all time, then perhaps the stupidest yet. Clearly, Hürzeler is an ideologue with a set way of playing, even if that set way is destined to become an act of self-immolation.

There will be talk of a crazy game and a mad half-hour. But the form of madness in play was the Albert Einstein definition of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So high was the Brighton line in the first half you wondered if Hürzeler had seen Lewis Dunk and Adam Webster play before, neither of whom is likely to challenge for the world indoor 60m title any time soon.

The moment Chelsea worked this out midway through the first half Brighton were toast, the game dissolving into an experiment into how many times Nicolas Jackson could beat Dunk in a straight footrace from the halfway line (answer: many, many times).

 

[Bold Seagull]

​

The recruitment team can make mistakes.

I think they got last season's summer window horribly wrong in terms of midfielders. Dahoud and Milner were poor acquisitions to replace Caicedo and Mac Allister. Baleba was signed for the future, which is working out now. But if left Brighton short in midfield last season.

It's possible that the CB area was overlooked this summer. A lot of attacking midfielders/wingers were signed. Some for the future.

Badiashile is available for around €20 million, which is worth a punt.

Hato could be a generational talent. It's doubtful that he'd even join Brighton, but could possibly see it as a good learning environment before moving on at 21.

Ndicka suffered a collapsed lung from a challenge. He seems to be fine now.

Igor could still, in theory, come good. But it's hard to see him getting a run of games due to Dunk being the captain.

Just picking this line out, your conclusion for why Dunk is ahead of Igor is because he is captain?

 

[raymondo]

It doesn't matter how fast a defender is in a straight race, if the forward has started running in his own half to chase a long pass, and if our defender has to turn on the half way line and then start running, there is zero chance of catching the forward.

...yes, even Glenn Murray...