HS2

[LU7 RED]

I'm also well up for progress etc, but this seems like a waste of money on something that will be a rich mans plaything. Half an hour quicker? what major benefit is that going to bring?

With the development of electronic signatures, teleconferencing, etc, there should be less need for business travel. Imagine all that money being used on the current network. The one that has stations actually IN the cities, not half an hour away, like Leeds' new station is going to be.

 

[beorhthelm]

Leeds to London season ticket currently 13.5k per annum. I guess this would become close to 20k at least. Not sure that would make economic sense

why would you want to buy a season ticket to commute from Manchester to London? the whole objective is that you move some of the demand for business infrastructure away from London, but those in the statellite offices can still get clients/customers/colleges in London quickly. as such the vast majority of the cost would be borne by business expenses.

most the opposition is either nimbyism or opposition for the sake of it (because its not your political team proposing it). yes, there does need to be additional investment made in existing infrastructure, however if you didnt have HS2 the same funding isnt going to get spent their, it just wont be spent on rail at all. its not a this or that, its this or some other grand project or nothing.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The party that will most benefit from HS2 will be the commuters

What about the shareholders of the private companies which will be receiving the public money?

 

[LU7 RED]

'The commuters' will still be squeezed in their normal trains. HS2 isn't for commuting, its for well off businessmen.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

"We are finding the railways are overcrowded." - George Osborne.

Finding? Most of us found this out a long time ago. Next he will be telling us they are expensive. Or that Southern Rail are a bunch of incompetent white flag waving bottle jobs.

 

[sten_super]

why would you want to buy a season ticket to commute from Manchester to London? the whole objective is that you move some of the demand for business infrastructure away from London, but those in the statellite offices can still get clients/customers/colleges in London quickly. as such the vast majority of the cost would be borne by business expenses.

I can't see the rationale for this - for most businesses that benefit the extra half an hour is surely neither here nor there? I can't see a load of new businesses springing up in Leeds/Manchester on the back of shaving a little bit of time off the travel (nonwithstanding, as [MENTION=17624]LU7 RED[/MENTION] points out, that in fact there will be naff all savings getting into Leeds, Sheffield, Derby or Nottingham because they are putting the stations in stupid places and will require connections).

most the opposition is either nimbyism or opposition for the sake of it (because its not your political team proposing it). yes, there does need to be additional investment made in existing infrastructure, however if you didnt have HS2 the same funding isnt going to get spent their, it just wont be spent on rail at all. its not a this or that, its this or some other grand project or nothing.

What you're talking about is just politics though - the point is that this amount SHOULD get spent on the railways, but on different parts. Yes we need more capacity and faster rail links - so spend the money on electrifying the lines, improving stations and interchanges (so that longer or more trains can serve on busy routes - and not just those into London) and new rolling stock, all sourced from British firms (so that you're still creating domestic jobs).

 

[Berty23]

Personally I think getting everyone high speed broadband should be the priority. Everyone would benefit and it would create loads of jobs as it would be a major project. If everyone had better broadband then the need for travel could reduce.

I can't believe they are forcing it through on the assumption no one works on trains and that the average wage of business people using it will be 70k.

 

[Bladders]

The re opening of the steyning and cuckoo line is far more important .

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Birmingham to London in 48 minutes? That's absolutely incredible and this project shoul dbe given full backing by everyone.

Not really - it only takes 1hr 10 minutes at the moment. Meanwhile, it takes you 40 minutes at rush hour to get from Euston to Victoria. What's the point in saving 20 minutes to waste it standing being someone in the queue for a tube?

I know as a regular commuter where I'd spend the money given the choice.

 

[beorhthelm]

I can't see the rationale for this - for most businesses that benefit the extra half an hour is surely neither here nor there? I can't see a load of new businesses springing up in Leeds/Manchester on the back of shaving a little bit of time off the travel (nonwithstanding, as [MENTION=17624]LU7 RED[/MENTION] points out, that in fact there will be naff all savings getting into Leeds, Sheffield, Derby or Nottingham because they are putting the stations in stupid places and will require connections).

i cant say i agree with it either, but this is the business case for the rail link. i can see the idea is a good one, just that in practive its unlikly. there is a saving if you can have an office on the outskirts of Leeds, everyone lives and communtes locally, with some people making journeys to London as and when necessary. i know a firm that started in York and stayed there as they grew because the train is 2 hours, despite 90% of their clients being in London (though some moved to Manchester, not sure how that works out).

 

[Leekbrookgull]

This, put the money into having a much better and more reliable network at the moment, electrify all remaining major routes, buy new trains and increase capacity - then if demand keeps up, re-visit it.

Its going to be incredibly expensive to use anyway, so people will continue to use the current services as it will be cheaper - its just a great big waste of money to me. Once we have a perfect rail network - then look at HS2.

Not to mention it will cost each UK household £1,000 - to those in the areas it will be then it might be good for them - but for those in the far Southwest or on the Isle of Wight for example - its a massive waste.

London to Manchester is 2hrs 8 mins yet it takes 12 mins to travel the four miles from Stockport into Piccadilly it's area's like this and bottleneck junctions that need sorting out first.

 

[abc]

Many very reasonable points made by those that are anti HS2. A summary might be as follows:

1. Too expensive
2. Agree with spending on infrastructure but this is the wrong scheme
3. People/companies will profit from it
4. Not needed because of future changes in society
5. I personally won't benefit
6. Won't create enough jobs (100,000 suggested) or don't believe the estimates
7. Will take too long
8. Or as said by a Tory MP today "I support it but not through my constituency" ie NIMBYism

The trouble is these arguments will surely be used for EVERY potential infrastructure scheme. If we want the gov to 'invest in infrastructure' to boost the economy then isn't the logical conclusion is that they either ignore all opposition or just make no investment at all?

 

[Hamilton]

Fair point. You'd like to think that they'll price it competitively, given that they need people to actually use it, but I don't trust them (DfT, train companies, Network Rail) to do anything sensibly. Still, given the relative cost savings of living in (say) Leeds versus London I'd imagine it'll still be worthwhile for some people. If it's not commuters paying for use of the line I really can't see how anyone's going to make any money out of it (to cover maintenance, let alone profit).

So that means we build it with capital and then tie up future capital by subsidising it. Madness.

Exactly what benefit is this to UK Plc? How is this going to help us attract inward investment or export our services (or dare I say it, future manufacturing) to countries across the world.

It's a classic bit of navel gazing. It's something that the train boys will love building and then when we've got it we will ask the question "well, what do we do with this now?"

In the meantime the Chinese will have built 10 more airports, a dozen engineering research facilities and be welcoming people to experiment on things like GM technology.

But, we'll have a lovely railway!

 

[goldstone]

This, put the money into having a much better and more reliable network at the moment, electrify all remaining major routes, buy new trains and increase capacity - then if demand keeps up, re-visit it.

Its going to be incredibly expensive to use anyway, so people will continue to use the current services as it will be cheaper - its just a great big waste of money to me. Once we have a perfect rail network - then look at HS2.

Not to mention it will cost each UK household £1,000 - to those in the areas it will be then it might be good for them - but for those in the far Southwest or on the Isle of Wight for example - its a massive waste.

Agree with that. Spend the money upgrading the rest of the network including funding BML2. If you don't know what that is google it. Great idea.

 

[Boys 9d]

Should we change the focus of our perception of the project? With its limited number of stopping places to me it is more an alternative to flying rather than the existing rail network. If travellers use the new railway then less internal flights might be needed and airports possibly not need expansion as they would mainly be used for international flights. Finally if someone flies from London to Manchester, they don't expect to land at every airport en route.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

Agree with that. Spend the money upgrading the rest of the network including funding BML2. If you don't know what that is google it. Great idea.

Now I know you are a nutter. Bml2 is the biggest waste of money ever devised.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Bml2,surely the Wealden Line is a better bet ?http://www.wealdenline.co.uk/

 

[Boys 9d]

It is claimed on another Forum that the planned route goes straight through Crewe Alexandra' Ground.

 

[dingodan]

It seems they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. This always seems to be the case in this country regardless of the colour of the government.

That is because, regardless of the colour of the government, they all do the same shit.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

It is claimed on another Forum that the planned route goes straight through Crewe Alexandra' Ground.

Can't that happening myself,the ground already backs onto the station and WCML etc.