[Travel] HS2 to be scrapped?

[jackalbion]

It's a bit unfair to criticise the media talking about time when it literally stands for "High speed rail" That said and appreciating you have a point about capacity, does it help much if HS2 ends up being Old Oak common to Birmingham? It's like a half completed puzzle.

Not really . Bang the nail on the head there with half completed puzzle. It just loads capacity elsewhere onto an already overcrowded tube system. We need to be looking at a way this potential capacity blockage can be dealt with, and I expect the government will do the usual of dealing with it after it gets a real problem.

 

[jackalbion]

It's the Southern leg of HS2 that should be scrapped completely IMHO. It's the North of England that needs a proper joined-up modern train service worthy of the name

I appreciate that, but opening up the northern and southern sections of HS2 will be the only way the North gets a proper service.

 

[maltaseagull]

Surely has become just a total embarrassment in delays and cost over runs? If any government wants to improve rail travel why not spend what money is available on the existing network or even possibly reopen some of the former network?

I thought that the network is unable to cope with current traffic and needs more track?

But every major project is usually delivered late and massively over budget so no surprise that it is costing so much!

 

[Weststander]

add suspected under estimates to get the project approval or win the contract. also, according to BiL working on Crossrail, too many project managers and foreman, people not doing anything but checking the engineers doing something. there's a meme for this.

though i'm not sure these are exclusive to Britain or public sector. also wonder if abroad costs are buried. there was a problem with a Spainish rail project, didnt make the tunnels big enough. the remediation of this somehow didn't add cost to the project apparently. could have been happy coincidence fitted in contingecnies, or put in another budget.

On the continent I’ve also witnessed part shelved schemes eg the otherwise excellent Montpellier tram system.

TGV built a wonderful station outside the city. The public-private partnership that financed the tram system, abandoned the link line proposal.

A separate point, in France and China central government compulsory purchase land very quickly, with an effectively non existent appeal system, it goes through in months. They also build lines through stunning countryside, ignoring objections from environmentalists and local politicians. In the UK the planning process takes epochs.

 

[swindonseagull]

Really dont care......cant afford a train ticket in the UK.

 

[AmexRuislip]

If you're going to construct a new line why make it shit and no better than one built 150 years prior?! A new passenger only line means more capacity for freight on the existing lines, potentially for drivers of lorries to use through design. Freight isn't needed as regularly as passenger movement.

Edit: also well developed plans already for rail freight, for eg:

Hinckley National Rail Freight Interchange – Blaby District Council

The Hinckley National Rail Freight Interchange is a large proposed development known as a Nationally Significant Infrastructure Project

www.blaby.gov.uk

Hinckley National Freight Interchange - Tritax Symmetry

tritaxsymmetry.com

Near me the HS2 line runs paralllel to the existing Chiltern line.
Bridges will be about 50 metres apart.
Image not current, but you can see where the new line will go.

Google Earth

earth.app.goo.gl

An overview of the whole area.

 

[chickens]

According to Grant Shapps it's also down to environmentalists (that's what he said on the Sunday morning politics show anyway).

Which I like to think we all know is nonsense. Every country has environmental law and citizens who understand ecology and fight for the minimum ecological disturbance within the scope of a project.

We can’t simultaneously argue that we had to leave the EU due to stifling environmental regulations, and at the same time argue that France and Spain are able to build cheaper railways due to having lower environmental regulations than us.

Both can’t be true. Yet again we’re being taken for mugs one way or the other.

 

[Weststander]

I appreciate that, but opening up the northern and southern sections of HS2 will be the only way the North gets a proper service.

Isn’t that a London centric view, that the UK world revolves around everyone wanting to go to/from London.

Wouldn’t a non HS network of up to 140mph, linking Liverpool to Hull, at the same time Birmingham, Manchester, Birmingham. Sheffield and Leeds with other routes, give huge benefits to a 15m population? Huge cities and towns doing business with each other, taking cars off the road. Their rail system is so slow per mile, most people jump in the car.

Hugely cheaper than the London-Brum section of HS1 according to experts this morning.

The St Pancras to Liverpool/Manchester train route, bypassing the Black Country, is a great route and service in my experience. Just 2 hours. Constructed or adapted some time back, with next to no fanfare. Showing what can be done without spending HS levels of public borrowing.

Would be interested in your knowledgeable thoughts.

 

[Weststander]

Which I like to think we all know is nonsense. Every country has environmental law and citizens who understand ecology and fight for the minimum ecological disturbance within the scope of a project.

We can’t simultaneously argue that we had to leave the EU due to stifling environmental regulations, and at the same time argue that France and Spain are able to build cheaper railways due to having lower environmental regulations than us.

Both can’t be true. Yet again we’re being taken for mugs one way or the other.

in France they rush through new train lines. They’re pretty brutal in dealing with obstinate land owners and environmentalists. There was a R4 doc on the differences about 10 years ago. They said something like we build one new railway bridge per annum, after a very long process. Whilst the French built 100 new bridges a year. Run centrally, any entity trying to stop it is brushed aside.

 

[A1X]

It's the Southern leg of HS2 that should be scrapped completely IMHO. It's the North of England that needs a proper joined-up modern train service worthy of the name

The southern leg of HS2 is the whole reason it’s being built in the first place, a new line between Birmingham and Manchester doesn’t do a thing about the capacity crunch between Willesden and Rugby

 

[jackalbion]

Isn’t that a London centric view, that the UK world revolves around everyone wanting to go to/from London.

Wouldn’t a non HS network of up to 140mph, linking Liverpool to Hull, at the same time Birmingham, Manchester, Birmingham. Sheffield and Leeds with other routes, give huge benefits to a 15m population? Huge cities and towns doing business with each other, taking cars off the road. Their rail system is so slow per mile, most people jump in the car.

Hugely cheaper than the London-Brum section of HS1 according to experts this morning.

The St Pancras to Liverpool/Manchester train route, bypassing the Black Country, is a great route and service in my experience. Just 2 hours. Constructed or adapted some time back, with next to no fanfare. Showing what can be done without spending HS levels of public borrowing.

Would be interested in your knowledgeable thoughts.

Yes of course upgrades to the 140mph lines would be great, but absolutely none of that will possible without capacity increases at Manchester Piccadilly. Manchester Piccadilly has become an absolute nightmare capacity wise and trains need to terminate somewhere else. If you take out a fast London service that uses the slow lines between Manchester and Birmingham or Rugby. You can add in 2 extra slow train potentially on the route that calls at more stations and services more towns. As there doesn’t need to a huge gap between slow and fast services. Electrical upgrades on the transpennine route is a must though.

 

[Bodian]

Wouldn’t a non HS network of up to 140mph, linking Liverpool to Hull, at the same time Birmingham, Manchester, Birmingham. Sheffield and Leeds with other routes, give huge benefits to a 15m population? Huge cities and towns doing business with each other, taking cars off the road. Their rail system is so slow per mile, most people jump in the car.

Hugely cheaper than the London-Brum section of HS1 according to experts this morning.

Yes it would be great. But they won't actually build it whatever they say.

 

[Pavilionaire]

My thoughts:

1. Whenever the government is involved Britain is rubbish at delivering big capital projects on budget and on time.
2. Look at those EU countries with similar costs, population density and labour issues to see how they manage to deliver projects like this, i.e. France, Germany, then try to replicate it.
3. If it is planning that the problem then there needs to be a government override for the national good.
4. There needs to be a cross-party agreement to commit and deliver these projects. The Tories promised this link, they campaigned on a 'Northern Powerhouse' commitment, people voted for them on that basis so scrapping HS2 Birmingham to Manchester would be the ultimate betrayal.

 

[jackalbion]

My thoughts:

1. Whenever the government is involved Britain is rubbish at delivering big capital projects on budget and on time.
2. Look at those EU countries with similar costs, population density and labour issues to see how they manage to deliver projects like this, i.e. France, Germany, then try to replicate it.
3. If it is planning that the problem then there needs to be a government override for the national good.
4. There needs to be a cross-party agreement to commit and deliver these projects. The Tories promised this link, they campaigned on a 'Northern Powerhouse' commitment, people voted for them on that basis so scrapping HS2 Birmingham to Manchester would be the ultimate betrayal.

Agree, but using the Amex as an example this country is absolutely plagued with NIMBYs that complain about everything. A new timetable on the West Coastway has to go through a public enquiry despite no extra money being spent on the implementation.

 

[Berty23]

It's 40% complete. Plus contracts have been signed for billions more. This would be absolutely insane.

https://www.grammarly.com/blog/sunk-cost-fallacy/#:~:text=The%20sunk%20cost%20fallacy%20is,you%20can't%20get%20back.

 

[Weststander]

Yes it would be great. But they won't actually build it whatever they say.

This government, who'll be kicked in the long grass in 15 months time.

Wouldn't it be good to see Starmer announce this and mean action. It would also help his cause in a vast number of parliamentary seats.

 

[Weststander]

My thoughts:

1. Whenever the government is involved Britain is rubbish at delivering big capital projects on budget and on time.
2. Look at those EU countries with similar costs, population density and labour issues to see how they manage to deliver projects like this, i.e. France, Germany, then try to replicate it.
3. If it is planning that the problem then there needs to be a government override for the national good.
4. There needs to be a cross-party agreement to commit and deliver these projects. The Tories promised this link, they campaigned on a 'Northern Powerhouse' commitment, people voted for them on that basis so scrapping HS2 Birmingham to Manchester would be the ultimate betrayal.

This.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

This government, who'll be kicked in the long grass in 15 months time.

Wouldn't it be good to see Starmer announce this and mean action. It would also help his cause in a vast number of parliamentary seats.

This. It would be as bold a move as Gordon Brown giving the green light to Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) in 2007

 

[Adders1]

It's just staggering isn't it. How on earth does it cost us 8x more than the Spanish to lay high-speed lines. We're even using the same company, a Spanish firm, to do the work.

The UK director of said firm says it's down to the planning. When they do a job in Spain, the government deals with all the stakeholders and gets the necessary permits so when the project starts, it's just about delivery. Apparently, in the UK we deal with these issues as we go which requires extra manpower and causes delays.

Even accounting for that, it's hard to understand the cost difference.

Because every time one of these jv partners bid for a job, they under estimate the amount of shite they have to do deal with when they dig more than 6 foot under the surface - dealing with a JV and project of this complexity is a bureaucratic nightmare but as usual a large government backed contract goes to the the lowest bidder, not the most capable contractors - it was a vanity project and I’ll conceived from the start

 

[Weststander]

This. It would be as bold a move as Gordon Brown giving the green light to Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) in 2007

It went over budget by £4b, no surprise. But it is fantastic, we used it in June during yet another rail strike, boarding at Abbey Wood, 20 minutes to the West End.