[Travel] HS2 to be scrapped?

[AmexRuislip]

The HS2 is roughly a mile from my house.
The new build has completely devastated the area around, with the surrounding countryside (fields), becoming a dumping ground for all of the earth that's been dug up
Local roads closing frequently for HS2 reasons.
A rise in HGV movement because of HS2.
The noise is unbearable.
The tunnel exits out of the ground near West Ruislip and then onwards to Bucks.
@BrightonCottager will concur on the above.

 

[Badger Boy]

It's just staggering isn't it. How on earth does it cost us 8x more than the Spanish to lay high-speed lines. We're even using the same company, a Spanish firm, to do the work.

The UK director of said firm says it's down to the planning. When they do a job in Spain, the government deals with all the stakeholders and gets the necessary permits so when the project starts, it's just about delivery. Apparently, in the UK we deal with these issues as we go which requires extra manpower and causes delays.

Even accounting for that, it's hard to understand the cost difference.

I'd like to explain the cost difference.

Staggering greed. Absolutely staggering and it's a public disgrace. Where's the dispatches episode investigating who has become filthy rich stealing the money being spent on the HS rail network? It's overdue. There needs to be accountability and a public enquiry to establish where the money has gone and how to get it back.

 

[essbee1]

The HS2 is roughly a mile from my house.
The new build has completely devastated the area around, with the surrounding countryside (fields), becoming a dumping ground for all of the earth that's been dug up
Local roads closing frequently for HS2 reasons.
A rise in HGV movement because of HS2.
The noise is unbearable.
The tunnel exits out of the ground near West Ruislip and then onwards to Bucks.
@BrightonCottager will concur on the above.

Weren't there big sink holes suddenly appearing at playing fields/rugby club too? HS2 made some bollox remark about
"nothing to worry about". FFS.

 

[AmexRuislip]

Weren't there big sink holes suddenly appearing at playing fields/rugby club too? HS2 made some bollox remark about
"nothing to worry about". FFS.

Yep.....

 

[Weststander]

A question - why do France, Germany and Spain build these at a small fraction of the cost per mile? This isn't party political, Labour and Tory build railways projects in the many £10b's a shot.

My guesses are:
1. As the first industrial nation our urban areas are rammed. Requiring tunneling and land purchase to prevent illogical HS routes.
2. Land and gardens are acquired at market value, and land is expensive is the UK.
3. Our construction and safety standards, belt n braces, are as high as anyone in the world. Requiring a huge investment in people, time, documentation, audits.
4. There are vast profits made all along the way by middlemen, specialist manufacturers, consultants. Many of whom are EU based. Electrical engineering friends of mine (mostly Labour supporters before anyone says) all became multi millionaires in supplying kit.
5. Public infrastructure schemes always go way over first budget in the UK, it's always been the way. In recent times Holyrood parliament building, Edinburgh tram system, Crossrail.

 

[Berty23]

Could also be linked to how elections work and small constituencies. MPs want to get all the predicted benefits of the line but absolutely none of the negatives. So it becomes NIMBY hell.

 

[essbee1]

A question - why do France, Germany and Spain build these at a small fraction of the cost per mile? This isn't party political, Labour and Tory build railways projects in the many £10b's a shot.

My guesses are:
1. As the first industrial nation our urban areas are rammed. Requiring tunneling and land purchase to prevent illogical HS routes.
2. Land and gardens are acquired at market value, and land is expensive is the UK.
3. Our construction and safety standards, belt n braces, are as high as anyone in the world. Requiring a huge investment in people, time, documentation, audits.
4. There are vast profits made all along the way by middlemen, specialist manufacturers, consultants. Many of whom are EU based. Electrical engineering friends of mine (mostly Labour supporters before anyone says) all became multi millionaires in supplying kit.
5. Public infrastructure schemes always go way over first budget in the UK, it's always been the way. In recent times Holyrood parliament building, Edinburgh tram system, Crossrail.

Don't forget the cost of backhanders that fall into the laps of MPs/Ministers for being directors of construction companies involved.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

We need to build it to increase capacity, but of course the media outlets constantly talk about time. From a planning perspective at current levels the WCML up to Manchester is at Capacity. Southern cut back their Milton Keynes service to Watford to Increase capacity, it needs to go up on that route, and the only way to increase Capacity is to build HS2.

It's a bit unfair to criticise the media talking about time when it literally stands for "High speed rail" That said and appreciating you have a point about capacity, does it help much if HS2 ends up being Old Oak common to Birmingham? It's like a half completed puzzle.

 

[A1X]

5. Public infrastructure schemes always go way over first budget in the UK, it's always been the way. In recent times Holyrood parliament building, Edinburgh tram system, Crossrail.

And a large part of that is private contractors deliberately under-bidding to get the gig, then jacking the price up. Easy to say you can do a job for a tenner, then once everything's signed saying "actually this one's going to cost a grand mate, sorry guv". I believe for SNCF the French Government basically build the whole thing, so far less of that sort of thing to worry about.

 

[raymondo]

A question - why do France, Germany and Spain build these at a small fraction of the cost per mile? This isn't party political, Labour and Tory build railways projects in the many £10b's a shot.

My guesses are:
1. As the first industrial nation our urban areas are rammed. Requiring tunneling and land purchase to prevent illogical HS routes.
2. Land and gardens are acquired at market value, and land is expensive is the UK.
3. Our construction and safety standards, belt n braces, are as high as anyone in the world. Requiring a huge investment in people, time, documentation, audits.
4. There are vast profits made all along the way by middlemen, specialist manufacturers, consultants. Many of whom are EU based. Electrical engineering friends of mine (mostly Labour supporters before anyone says) all became multi millionaires in supplying kit.
5. Public infrastructure schemes always go way over first budget in the UK, it's always been the way. In recent times Holyrood parliament building, Edinburgh tram system, Crossrail.

You'd think by now the Office of Budget Responsibility (or whatever) would have the historical stats to prove that ALL public infrastructure projects in the UK should, by law, have their initial project launch estimates quadrupled... before a spade hits the ground.

 

[raymondo]

And a large part of that is private contractors deliberately under-bidding to get the gig, then jacking the price up. Easy to say you can do a job for a tenner, then once everything's signed saying "actually this one's going to cost a grand mate, sorry guv". I believe for SNCF the French Government basically build the whole thing, so far less of that sort of thing to worry about.

Or 'we' could be more savvy about contracts to ensure the winning bidders share the risk of cost escalation.

 

[dsr-burnley]

If it's not about cutting journey times, why is it high speed? Why isn't the new line just a normal line dedicated to goods trains, so it doesn't matter that it isn't going to city centres, and the goods yards can be out of town. And they can no doubt design trains to either allow lorries to drive on and then the drivers can sit back and have a rest during the journey (as they do in Austria and Switzerland, among others) or fix the trains up like container ships where a container can be clipped on and off. Or both.

Then leave the passenger lines as they are, because 2 hours Preston to London is fine.

 

[pb21]

If it's not about cutting journey times, why is it high speed? Why isn't the new line just a normal line dedicated to goods trains, so it doesn't matter that it isn't going to city centres, and the goods yards can be out of town. And they can no doubt design trains to either allow lorries to drive on and then the drivers can sit back and have a rest during the journey (as they do in Austria and Switzerland, among others) or fix the trains up like container ships where a container can be clipped on and off. Or both.

Then leave the passenger lines as they are, because 2 hours Preston to London is fine.

If you're going to construct a new line why make it shit and no better than one built 150 years prior?! A new passenger only line means more capacity for freight on the existing lines, potentially for drivers of lorries to use through design. Freight isn't needed as regularly as passenger movement.

Edit: also well developed plans already for rail freight, for eg:

Hinckley National Rail Freight Interchange – Blaby District Council

The Hinckley National Rail Freight Interchange is a large proposed development known as a Nationally Significant Infrastructure Project

www.blaby.gov.uk

Hinckley National Freight Interchange - Tritax Symmetry

tritaxsymmetry.com

 

[beorhthelm]

A question - why do France, Germany and Spain build these at a small fraction of the cost per mile? This isn't party political, Labour and Tory build railways projects in the many £10b's a shot.

My guesses are:
1. As the first industrial nation our urban areas are rammed. Requiring tunneling and land purchase to prevent illogical HS routes.
2. Land and gardens are acquired at market value, and land is expensive is the UK.
3. Our construction and safety standards, belt n braces, are as high as anyone in the world. Requiring a huge investment in people, time, documentation, audits.
4. There are vast profits made all along the way by middlemen, specialist manufacturers, consultants. Many of whom are EU based. Electrical engineering friends of mine (mostly Labour supporters before anyone says) all became multi millionaires in supplying kit.
5. Public infrastructure schemes always go way over first budget in the UK, it's always been the way. In recent times Holyrood parliament building, Edinburgh tram system, Crossrail.

add suspected under estimates to get the project approval or win the contract. also, according to BiL working on Crossrail, too many project managers and foreman, people not doing anything but checking the engineers doing something. there's a meme for this.

though i'm not sure these are exclusive to Britain or public sector. also wonder if abroad costs are buried. there was a problem with a Spainish rail project, didnt make the tunnels big enough. the remediation of this somehow didn't add cost to the project apparently. could have been happy coincidence fitted in contingecnies, or put in another budget.

 

[Questions]

Of course we want infrastructure - and we do know it costs a lot. But we still go ahead and proudly achieve it, regardless of spiralling costs - just look at Crossrail............oh, wait a minute, what location is that benefitting?


The OP never mentioned hate, just dislike - but caused by ignorance like this? Yes, probably.

I think we should be kept apart.

Seriously I do. We lost our sister to the north in 1976. She was as bright as they come but ended up as a barmaid in a Stockport pub called The Wellington.
Tried to get ME !!!!!!!!! Her own brother to drink Boddingtons and Tetleys.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I'd like to explain the cost difference..

That's an easy one. Public infrastructure projects are put out to tender. Those companies tendering price against the brief given. Most companies will side with keeping costs down as to not price themselves out of the tender. Now combine this with briefs rarely matching what is really required ( oh we thought we'd asked for a Rolls Royce but your offering us a Mini Metro ), the public organisation constantly changing their minds, and politicians always wanting a low cost headline and you end up with costs not even vaguely matching the original suggested costs.

 

[Pevenseagull]

A question - why do France, Germany and Spain build these at a small fraction of the cost per mile? This isn't party political, Labour and Tory build railways projects in the many £10b's a shot.

My guesses are:
1. As the first industrial nation our urban areas are rammed. Requiring tunneling and land purchase to prevent illogical HS routes.
2. Land and gardens are acquired at market value, and land is expensive is the UK.
3. Our construction and safety standards, belt n braces, are as high as anyone in the world. Requiring a huge investment in people, time, documentation, audits.
4. There are vast profits made all along the way by middlemen, specialist manufacturers, consultants. Many of whom are EU based. Electrical engineering friends of mine (mostly Labour supporters before anyone says) all became multi millionaires in supplying kit.
5. Public infrastructure schemes always go way over first budget in the UK, it's always been the way. In recent times Holyrood parliament building, Edinburgh tram system, Crossrail.

According to Grant Shapps it's also down to environmentalists (that's what he said on the Sunday morning politics show anyway).

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

It's the Southern leg of HS2 that should be scrapped completely IMHO. It's the North of England that needs a proper joined-up modern train service worthy of the name

 

[Uter]

It's the Southern leg of HS2 that should be scrapped completely IMHO. It's the North of England that needs a proper joined-up modern train service worthy of the name

It's 40% complete. Plus contracts have been signed for billions more. This would be absolutely insane.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

It's 40% complete. Plus contracts have been signed for billions more. This would be absolutely insane.

Put it in mothballs until they've completed the North of England leg(s). That'll soon focus their minds