[Politics] HS2 Decision

[Boys 9d]

I am just a bit concerned about these 8,000 odd shiny new electric buses that Johnson intends to create....

1, Will they be made in the UK ? And, do we actually still have the capability here ?

2, If so, how and where are we going to import the parts from as it's going to cost a fortune in duties by the time they start building ?

3, Who is going to subsidise all these shiny new buses with their drivers as they criss cross the country virtually empty on the essential but unprofitable routes ?

4, How long before those that voted for Johnson actually realise that 8,000 new electric buses is just another of his routine con tricks ?

I can visualise all 8000 of them plodding up North Street and queuing at the Clock Tower Traffic Lights.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

It's also, logically, a lot easier to do things on time and on budget when you're building something new rather than working on something which already exists, doubly so if you have to keep the thing which exists available at all times. It was a lot quicker and easier to build the Amex in a field in Falmer than it would have been to build it on top of the Withdean while we were still playing scheduled matches there.

As you're obviously clued up on this, and have used the phrase 'on time' relating to the building of it, do you know why it will take 10 years to lay down 120 miles of HS train track from London to Birmingham, and another 10 years to extend it to Manchester, Leeds and Wigan (great they have an extension out to Wigan, important destination that for London business-types).

These kind of building times just don't make any sense to me. Get a couple of factories manufacturing the track whilst some bulldozers flatten the line. Get 50 teams on it, 2 or 3 miles each team, crane it in, wire it up, couple of years tops.

They really just need to put Anneka Rice, Nick Knowles and the Chinese in charge, we'd have it done in no time.

 

[vegster]

its the added cost for "high speed" that seems unnecessary, too short to really make much difference.



for 8k units you build the capability, would certainly hope they can be built in UK. also, you dont pay duties on imports if you dont want to, and we the tax payer will subsidise the routes.

I think that for too long we have been allowing our home grown engineering companies to wither as we bought cheaper alternatives from the EU in order to save costs/ maximise profits for short term gains. I genuinely question if we have enough skilled people and enough small or large companies that can manufacture all the fittings..... unless we utilise the soon to be abandoned Nissan plant and its workforce ?

 

[beorhthelm]

Well, two reasons. Firstly technology will have reached the point in 2030+ such that (I think) many business/other journeys will be pointless.

the tech has been ubiquitous in business for at least a decade, people still want meetings in person.

 

[beorhthelm]

I think that for too long we have been allowing our home grown engineering companies to wither as we bought cheaper alternatives from the EU in order to save costs/ maximise profits for short term gains. I genuinely question if we have enough skilled people and enough small or large companies that can manufacture all the fittings..... unless we utilise the soon to be abandoned Nissan plant and its workforce ?

while we do import, reports of the death of manufacturing have been exaggerated. 1.3m cars made in UK last year with large indigenous supply chain, so yes, we have the skills and plant to make them if inclined to do so.

 

[Badger]

As you're obviously clued up on this, and have used the phrase 'on time' relating to the building of it, do you know why it will take 10 years to lay down 120 miles of HS train track from London to Birmingham, and another 10 years to extend it to Manchester, Leeds and Wigan (great they have an extension out to Wigan, important destination that for London business-types).

These kind of building times just don't make any sense to me. Get a couple of factories manufacturing the track whilst some bulldozers flatten the line. Get 50 teams on it, 2 or 3 miles each team, crane it in, wire it up, couple of years tops.

They really just need to put Anneka Rice, Nick Knowles and the Chinese in charge, we'd have it done in no time.

I was wondering the same thing until I read an article about the complexity of the project. They've got build a load of tunnels, especially in London and through the Chilterns. They also have to build what will become the longest train viaduct in the UK. There's all the valleys they're going to blast out, to maintain some of the landscape and tackle some of the noise. Apparently they have to re-route a river in one section. Then there's bridges which need building and at least one which needs moving across the M42.

If it was China, it would probably take about 6 months. We don't have an infinite supply of cheap labour here though.

 

[Notters]

Having discussed this with a rail expert at work, I understand it is entirely necessary in order to free up space on existing lines, partly for commuters (particularly from Milton Keynes apparently) and partly for freight.

It's not really about the speed (though it would be daft to build a new low-speed line).

 

[vegster]

I was wondering the same thing until I read an article about the complexity of the project. They've got build a load of tunnels, especially in London and through the Chilterns. They also have to build what will become the longest train viaduct in the UK. There's all the valleys they're going to blast out, to maintain some of the landscape and tackle some of the noise. Apparently they have to re-route a river in one section. Then there's bridges which need building and at least one which needs moving across the M42.

If it was China, it would probably take about 6 months. We don't have an infinite supply of cheap labour here though.

Or a local population who would meekly accept their ancestral homes, ancient woodlands and villages being flooded/flattened thanks to the PLA.

 

[A1X]

As you're obviously clued up on this, and have used the phrase 'on time' relating to the building of it, do you know why it will take 10 years to lay down 120 miles of HS train track from London to Birmingham, and another 10 years to extend it to Manchester, Leeds and Wigan (great they have an extension out to Wigan, important destination that for London business-types).

These kind of building times just don't make any sense to me. Get a couple of factories manufacturing the track whilst some bulldozers flatten the line. Get 50 teams on it, 2 or 3 miles each team, crane it in, wire it up, couple of years tops.

They really just need to put Anneka Rice, Nick Knowles and the Chinese in charge, we'd have it done in no time.

A lot of it is due to the need to thread their way out of existing cities, plus Euston station will need to be entirely rebuilt to accommodate HS2. There's also the planned interchange at Old Oak Common with Crossrail which hasn't yet started. Then at the other end they need to build a brand new station at Curzon Street in Birmingham and then find a way out of Brum. The bit in the middle won't take anything like that long and prep work has already begun. It's also much of the reason for the cost, half of HS1 was the cost to tunnel under east London from Essex to St Pancras.

 

[amexer]

Better value then 360 on Hove seafront

 

[Weststander]

Having discussed this with a rail expert at work, I understand it is entirely necessary in order to free up space on existing lines, partly for commuters (particularly from Milton Keynes apparently) and partly for freight.

It's not really about the speed (though it would be daft to build a new low-speed line).

That was stated by all railway experts and (cross party) ex ministers today. The existing west coast line is simply creaking at full capacity, meaning that any mishap eg a single train breakdown has a huge knock on effect.

 

[A1X]

And that it was quicker to build a railway 170 years ago than it is now. It confuses me

Didn't need to bother with poxy things like compensation or avoiding disruption (unless it was to wealthy landowners). Bulldozing a slum and kicking a load of families out was a whole lot easier back then.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think Boris has seen already that systems spike the best laid plans. Letting terrorists out early. Deporting Jamaican criminals. And next, getting HS2 done....

He has several personality traits that suggest he may make a success of all of these in time.

Probably that's all I need to say on this matter, mad as that may seem.

 

[Madafwo]

And that it was quicker to build a railway 170 years ago than it is now. It confuses me

I doubt the great Victorian engineers had to contend with the Crested Newt. So far it has taken 6 months to replace some concrete steps due to a newt being discovered at the site where I work. All work must stop until it can be certain that no harm will come to it or it's habitat, and we have to have a newt welfare expert on site as well.

That is some concrete steps, in one location.

 

[beorhthelm]

I doubt the great Victorian engineers had to contend with the Crested Newt. So far it has taken 6 months to replace some concrete steps due to a newt being discovered at the site where I work. All work must stop until it can be certain that no harm will come to it or it's habitat, and we have to have a newt welfare expert on site as well.

That is some concrete steps, in one location.

for an endangered animal they seem to be everywhere.

 

[Bodian]

That was stated by all railway experts and (cross party) ex ministers today. The existing west coast line is simply creaking at full capacity, meaning that any mishap eg a single train breakdown has a huge knock on effect.

Most of the Avanti (old Virgin) trains I catch on the West Coast Main Line are far from full - as they're so expensive. Not only that, but the 'standard class' is empty at peak times, and the first class is empty the rest of the day. It's virtually impossible to get cheap 'advance' tickets, so you end up paying mostly full price. It used to be roughly the case that travelling on your own was cheaper by train than by car, but travelling as 2-3 people it was more expensive (combined cost), but now, it's ridiculously expensive for just one person. Much as I love train travel, and hate motorways - I really have to think hard about it now. I can't see HS2 changing this - if it results in cheaper tickets for the WCML, then great - but I doubt it very much.

Much of the problem with capacity doesn't come from the London issues - it's further up the line, where HS2 won't help for decades, if ever. For instance, up here, we sometimes get no main line trains for ages, then in the space of 30 minutes we'll get two to Glasgow and another two to Edinburgh, that have all started somewhere different (Cornwall, Birmingham, Manchester, London). And then we have the issue of different companies wanting to run through trains along the same stretch - so the Manchester to Barrow trains have to join (then leave) the West Coast Line and share with the Avanti trains, who have to share with the Cross-Country trains, and so on. Because of the lack of joined up planning, and the old use of branch lines and junctions, we have too many trains crossing and using the same lines - which just leads to congestion.

As you're obviously clued up on this, and have used the phrase 'on time' relating to the building of it, do you know why it will take 10 years to lay down 120 miles of HS train track from London to Birmingham, and another 10 years to extend it to Manchester, Leeds and Wigan (great they have an extension out to Wigan, important destination that for London business-types).

It's to make sure the pies get down to London whilst still hot.

 

[AmexRuislip]

Utter waste of money on a scheme that will not function as intended and with money
that could be used to upgrade existing lines or fund real projects that will benefit
society rather than the construction business fat cats and their politician crony mates.

I live in London outskirts and while I am not directly affected, it has caused some places
I liked to be knocked down. Lord knows how you would feel if your house was in its
way.

In the Ruislip end, the tunnel goes right under the Hop & Vine, so your drinks will definitely be spilt

On a serious note, it goes right past our allotment and a mile from our house.
Noise won't be the issue, only all the shithouse lorries that will suffocate the local roads.....

 

[Bodian]

I doubt the great Victorian engineers had to contend with the Crested Newt. So far it has taken 6 months to replace some concrete steps due to a newt being discovered at the site where I work. All work must stop until it can be certain that no harm will come to it or it's habitat, and we have to have a newt welfare expert on site as well.

That is some concrete steps, in one location.

The biggest find of great crested newts affecting a planning application was when English Nature wanted to build their headquarters in Peterborough - which did make me smile at the time.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I was wondering the same thing until I read an article about the complexity of the project. They've got build a load of tunnels, especially in London and through the Chilterns. They also have to build what will become the longest train viaduct in the UK. There's all the valleys they're going to blast out, to maintain some of the landscape and tackle some of the noise. Apparently they have to re-route a river in one section. Then there's bridges which need building and at least one which needs moving across the M42.

If it was China, it would probably take about 6 months. We don't have an infinite supply of cheap labour here though.

A lot of it is due to the need to thread their way out of existing cities, plus Euston station will need to be entirely rebuilt to accommodate HS2. There's also the planned interchange at Old Oak Common with Crossrail which hasn't yet started. Then at the other end they need to build a brand new station at Curzon Street in Birmingham and then find a way out of Brum. The bit in the middle won't take anything like that long and prep work has already begun. It's also much of the reason for the cost, half of HS1 was the cost to tunnel under east London from Essex to St Pancras.

I mean, I get all that, but it sounds like they are doing it all one after the other, rather than at the same time. If you had one group building this viaduct, another making a tunnel, another putting a bridge over the motorway, another rebuilding the train station, any of those individual projects could be done in 2 years.

Mind you, re-routing a river, blasting out valleys, all for 20 minutes quicker to Birmingham mad I tell you, mad

 

[Hastings gull]

I would rather that money be used to terminate contracts with the companies currently running the franchises. Bring the whole network back in house, standardise the fares to make it genuinely enticing to use the trains rather than drive everywhere. The only thing which makes me think Brexit could be a success is the idea of ending the privatisation of public services and bringing them back under the control of the UK government. Public transport should be standardised across the country for the benefit of everyone, reducing fares, increasing choice and range of services and making it more appealing to people to use the services available rather than hopping in their car.

... but that's not what is going to happen. HS2 I don't feel too passionately about either way, I think the idea of linking the country is good in theory but it doesn't seem necessary. I understand the desire for the high speed link, but I think having reliable Wifi on the trains would probably be a better use of the money in the short term.

Not sure with one government franchise, that cannot be voted out and a standardised service, that you would then get choice? To say nothing of the level of efficiency of a nationalised service.