[Politics] HS2 Decision

[AlastairWatts]

I think that for too long we have been allowing our home grown engineering companies to wither as we bought cheaper alternatives from the EU in order to save costs/ maximise profits for short term gains. I genuinely question if we have enough skilled people and enough small or large companies that can manufacture all the fittings..... unless we utilise the soon to be abandoned Nissan plant and its workforce ?

and why not? Surely too goodness we can make all of this (and the electric buses too) in Britain?

The real problem with HS2 is management. To give him credit, Boris seems to have worked this out. It needs tough decisive management with control of the endless teams of surveyors, environmental consultants and all the rest. Bizarre stories on Five Live this morning from people who've agreed to sell bits of land getting literally endless visits from this bunch.

And course the tree huggers are joining in. You only have to read the earlier thread about light pollution to realise the difficulties HS2 will face. Way back Admiral Nelson initiated a scheme to plant endless oak trees (the forerunners of many of the trees presently under threat) to ensure a supply of timber for the next generation of 'wooden walls'. Unsurprisingly innovation overtook this with the advent of steel ships. Near me a new road was cut from Bracknell bypassing Camberley and Aldershot to link with the A31 outside Farnham. Endless environmental issues were faced and overcome, with ponds and streams being relocated and all sorts of badger culverts and so on created. Result? All the little animals and insects are still living happily - and here in High Wycombe the Red Kites, once extinct in Britain, are doing splendidly well living off road kill and discarded takeaways.

Everything is almost possible if we try - but these issues need to be managed by people who are managers, not half crazed individuals running around complaining about trees and wildlife and (dare I say it) light pollution. In other words, all of these issues can be resolved given drive, determination and proper mamagement.

 

[symyjym]

If only that was taken into consideration 15-20 years, when 'money' was cheap, the North was getting shat upon and our infrastructure was beginning to crumb.

Too busy with going to war in Iraq. We can blame Blair for setting our country back on many levels, or at least I do.

 

[The Clamp]

When the most pressing unanswered question in your proposal is “why”? It’s probably best to scrap the idea.

 

[A1X]

When the most pressing unanswered question in your proposal is “why”? It’s probably best to scrap the idea.

It's not though to anyone who actually looks into it. Here's a summary - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-financial-benefit-controversy-a8937936.html

 

[Badger]

It's not though to anyone who actually looks into it. Here's a summary - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-financial-benefit-controversy-a8937936.html

That's a great article. I especially like the last paragraph, talking about how all major infrastructure projects run over budget and over time, but those are quickly forgotten. I'm sure the Crossrail delays will be forgotten in 5 or 10 years.


"If it gets scrapped, in 10 years’ time people will be talking about building something very similar, and moaning that we didn’t get on with it when we had the chance. Probably while they sit on the floor of an overcrowded train."

This is exactly the kind of problem I've been reading about in Toronto recently. There are various proposals for extending the (laughably small) subway system in the city. They've had various different proposals over the last 30 years, with only a couple of small projects actually coming to fruition. Apparently they even started on the tunnels for one of the projects and the next mayor scrapped the idea and got them to fill in the holes. As a result, we're miles behind other major cities in terms of public transit.

 

[A1X]

This is exactly the kind of problem I've been reading about in Toronto recently. There are various proposals for extending the (laughably small) subway system in the city. They've had various different proposals over the last 30 years, with only a couple of small projects actually coming to fruition. Apparently they even started on the tunnels for one of the projects and the next mayor scrapped the idea and got them to fill in the holes. As a result, we're miles behind other major cities in terms of public transit.

This is one of the major problems with these sort of projects, politics in democracies dwells far too much in the short term to the detriment of the long term. Major infrastructure projects are, by their very definition, long term, expensive and don't realise their cost / benefit for some time to come, however politicians need to win elections in the here and now. Hence it's popular to "axe" things like this because they can say "ooh look, I saved us £100bn, aren't I great, re-elect me please" and hang the consequences 15-20 years down the line. That'll be some other politicians problem.

 

[symyjym]

It's not though to anyone who actually looks into it. Here's a summary - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...s-financial-benefit-controversy-a8937936.html

Just the fact that it will relieve the pressure of the current system is a positive byproduct that will improve the service all round on the lines that are in use today.

 

[Dr Bandler]

I wonder of Brighton Main Line 2 can be resurrected, as our PM seems to favour infrastructure projects. I thought it was a great idea.

 

[schmunk]

I wonder of Brighton Main Line 2 can be resurrected, as our PM seems to favour infrastructure projects. I thought it was a great idea.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Surprise surprise Stanley Johnson has made a lot of money from his home, which will be metres from the line in north London.

 

[AmexRuislip]

Surprise surprise Stanley Johnson has made a lot of money from his home, which will be metres from the line in north London.

On a side note, as you may recognise the areas of devastation from the link:

https://archive.hillingdon.gov.uk/article/22955/HS2-route-maps

There's even a 'swampy camp' near the Dogs Trust on Harvill Road, which looks more like Glastonbury on day 3

 

[Westdene Seagull]

It's a no from me on three counts :

1. The cost vs benefit case has never really been proven.

2. The environmental impact is obscene.

3. I don't agree with compulsory purchase of land or property. If it really must be done then it should be at the very minimum THREE times the market rate and that market rate should be agreed by an independent body. HS2 Ltd have bullied people into selling their homes for less than market rate.

 

[AmexRuislip]

Now I'm confused.
I thought the idea of the HS2 was as follows:

HS2 will form the backbone of our rail network
By freeing space for more trains to run on the existing network, HS2 will also enable faster and more frequent services on other routes too.

Now as per link, a report on saving money, by cutting speed of the trains

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Now I'm confused.
I thought the idea of the HS2 was as follows:

HS2 will form the backbone of our rail network
By freeing space for more trains to run on the existing network, HS2 will also enable faster and more frequent services on other routes too.

Now as per link, a report on saving money, by cutting speed of the trains

That will be because the project has become less about making the journey a little quicker and increasing capacity and connecting the Midlands and the North and more about preventing political 'egg on the face'. Should never had been started but once you've spent billions why would you stop ?

 

[Madafwo]

Now I'm confused.
I thought the idea of the HS2 was as follows:

HS2 will form the backbone of our rail network
By freeing space for more trains to run on the existing network, HS2 will also enable faster and more frequent services on other routes too.

Now as per link, a report on saving money, by cutting speed of the trains

That was quicker than I thought, always knew they'd look at reducing capability, it just so happens that its too late to do that for the southern end so let's shaft the North again.

Monumentally stupid to hobble the project to save a few quid, how much money would be saved by just getting on with it and not bothering with multiple enquiries.

 

[beorhthelm]

That was quicker than I thought, always knew they'd look at reducing capability, it just so happens that its too late to do that for the southern end so let's shaft the North again.

Monumentally stupid to hobble the project to save a few quid, how much money would be saved by just getting on with it and not bothering with multiple enquiries.

speed target has been in question for months. is it stupid to save a few quid or to stupid to have an unnecessary requirement? much time saving is from not stopping and maintaining high average speed. the speed is gilding to make the project look better, the capacity and simple investment into the region the core intention.

 

[Madafwo]

speed target has been in question for months. is it stupid to save a few quid or to stupid to have an unnecessary requirement? much time saving is from not stopping and maintaining high average speed. the speed is gilding to make the project look better, the capacity and simple investment into the region the core intention.

I'd rather have the capability there for future trains to be able to run at a higher speed, it may not be the case that the proposed fleet would run at the stated speed but it is much easier to build that capability in from the off than try and upgrade it at a later date, which they will inevitably want to do even if it is 40 years in the future, when they eventually get round to opening the first phase.

WCML should have been upgraded to 140mph but it was too expensive, we know how to build lines capable of 225mph, we should do it.

 

[A1X]

Now I'm confused.
I thought the idea of the HS2 was as follows:

HS2 will form the backbone of our rail network
By freeing space for more trains to run on the existing network, HS2 will also enable faster and more frequent services on other routes too.

Now as per link, a report on saving money, by cutting speed of the trains

It should be pointed out that this is all relative and will "merely" bring HS2 down from the planned fastest speeds anywhere in the world to just the same speed as many high speed lines in Germany and China. Which makes sense as the technology for this already exists rather than having to develop something new.