[Misc] HR Nightmare

[Eric Youngs Contact Lens]

Anyway, OP - it sounds like you're doing the right thing, don't doubt yourself. See HR as your allies and ask them to support you in getting the right outcome for your organisation. You can spin it onto your team member too and ask them, in front of HR, what they'd like you to do differently - make it not about them, but the impact of their behaviour so it's not personal. "We need to do X so our business can make money and survive/serve our customers/whatever the language your place uses is...how do we work together to do that?". Make it clear you're prepared to listen and adjust and keep being the reasonable one, and ask HR (with your team member in the room) to support you both in drawing up an action plan for resolving the situation that makes it measurable whether improvement has taken place and with regular reviews of that, with HR, so it doesn't drag on. Document everything and every conversation you have with the team member confirm understanding in writing after - it can be done informally, it doesn't have to be formal, but it documents things and gives them the opportunity to contest it which might be important later.

This.. similar to "positive intent" mentioned earlier.
If the employee is not really committed to the improvements they will tire of the situation before you. There will be frustrations along the way, and important that you are diligent, detailed and consistent to deal with those, but the mindset Happy Exile describes above is spot on IMO.

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

I find this bit interesting. How do you ask them to do things? Do you treat them as an equal person and ask with the usual politeness you would ask anyone to do something or as someone who is below you and order them around?

I had some managers who fell into the last camp and it can def rub you up the wrong way. I had actual stand up fights with one of them because of it.

I’m a manager of a team myself now and it’s the one thing I vowed not to be, overtly authoritarian. I wonder that from you saying about giving “advice” as well. Are you just being “Do as I say” about things, without actually having a reason to say what they are doing or the way they are doing things is especially bad or wrong? Are they getting the work done?

The sickness issue should in theory be easier. If they have a condition then anything more than a week needs a doctors line so you know if it’s genuine or not. Does your work have occupational health? You can refer them there for support if they have persistent sickness and it needs managed.

I go to war with control freak micromanagers. No problem in being set outcomes and being performance assessed in achieving them.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

1.5 years.

Easy then. Get them on a 5 month PIP which has one of the objectives of 'no more than 3 days sickness' ( the average sickness in industry is 7 days a year ). It will bring one of two outcomes :

1. They realise it's serious and fall into line. You win.

2. They fail the PIP and you fire them just before they get to 2 years. Employees have close to zero rights before 2 years service. You win.

 

[wellquickwoody]

I've been self employed for the last 20 years or so, prior to that I managed a team of about 10 people and yes it was both enjoyable but bloody painful at times. No one to answer to all these years has been a god send.

 

[Doonhamer7]

Only 1.5years is good news as if I remember right they effectively have very little employment rights until 2 years - so act now.
the sick leave is your only concern as if they have underlying medical conditions you could be got as a disability case so HR should be involved. We have a referral programme if your sick more than 5 times or 10days a year then you have to see the company doctor.

So as others have said document everything (factual no emotion just in case it goes to industrial tribunal). Expect your day book and

you don’t want to be doing PIPs as they are an f’ing nightmare. Discuss with your HR team about having a ‘without prejiduce’ conversation where you pay them off

our HR team are great as they do what they are supposed to which is to help you protect the business but get the result you want. Generally In engineering and construction companies HR teams are ‘hard people’ especially once people take the piss.

watch out for them turning your mgt style into bullying. Ive been the grievance manager in 3 cases where the manager didn’t get performance management in place quick enough and it was turned against them.

 

[Swimboy64]

Give the tosser the Ruud Gullit

 

[dazzer6666]

Easy then. Get them on a 5 month PIP which has one of the objectives of 'no more than 3 days sickness' ( the average sickness in industry is 7 days a year ). It will bring one of two outcomes :

1. They realise it's serious and fall into line. You win.

2. They fail the PIP and you fire them just before they get to 2 years. Employees have close to zero rights before 2 years service. You win.

…except you need to micro-manage the PIP, and it’ll probably fail on a technicality that HR will point out anyway meaning several more wasted weeks, or the employee will immediately raise a grievance that will cause even more work and stress. Five more months of crap usually.

Call them in, say things aren’t working out and suggest there is an easy way and a difficult way of dealing with this. The easy way is agreement to part company in exchange for an amount of cash (PILON plus a bit extra to make it happen) and a good reference.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Indeed.

We introduced a 360 degree appraisal system for a while. That was swiftly abandoned when the feedback towards managers was negative!

We also have a 'staff-survey' every year. The results of these are obscured and blended - and when I asked why, I was told that it was because the negative responses about one manager were 'too easily identifiable to them'. So, by 'hiding' it all, that manager (the worst I have ever known) survived for 14 years - when they should have been driven out after just a couple of years.

Yep. One cock, and instead of cutting off his goolies, a new system is introduced so that thousands of staff have to fill in forms that nobody reads, just in case the cock sues. Which he won't.

How did we ever win the war?

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

UPDATE!

We had a meeting with said employee one month ago, HR the lot, it turns out, the issue was a lack of communication from said employee, and we have now agreed targets and better communication methods etc

Fast forward one month and whilst the attitude is better, performance is still not that great, and recently, their attendance record has fallen behind. Which is a big issue from last year too. We understand they suffer a little with anxiety, which hasn’t helped, and we have to tread carefully with this, however, its also persistent lateness.

Furthermore this week, they were late yesterday, not much of an apology and usual excuse, didn’t make the time up after, it was 5mins. 1 or 10 mins, I think you should be seen to rectify the lateness. Today, I was taking this employee to Manchester Airport to visit a client of ours. I advised time of meet for the train, they then phoned running late and I am now visiting said client by myself. £124 train ticket to waste.

This employee has shown glimmers of hope in performances, but ultimately, they have also been out of desperation and this then has lead to rushing and making errors.

We are looking at disciplinary action now, I think I am at my tether and they need to go but we MUST make sure we’ve followed HR and employment law.

Just to add, all this tardiness effects our efficiency as a team and ultimately, money in my pocket.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

UPDATE!

We had a meeting with said employee one month ago, HR the lot, it turns out, the issue was a lack of communication from said employee, and we have now agreed targets and better communication methods etc

Fast forward one month and whilst the attitude is better, performance is still not that great, and recently, their attendance record has fallen behind. Which is a big issue from last year too. We understand they suffer a little with anxiety, which hasn’t helped, and we have to tread carefully with this, however, its also persistent lateness.

Furthermore this week, they were late yesterday, not much of an apology and usual excuse, didn’t make the time up after, it was 5mins. 1 or 10 mins, I think you should be seen to rectify the lateness. Today, I was taking this employee to Manchester Airport to visit a client of ours. I advised time of meet for the train, they then phoned running late and I am now visiting said client by myself. £124 train ticket to waste.

This employee has shown glimmers of hope in performances, but ultimately, they have also been out of desperation and this then has lead to rushing and making errors.

We are looking at disciplinary action now, I think I am at my tether and they need to go but we MUST make sure we’ve followed HR and employment law.

Just to add, all this tardiness effects our efficiency as a team and ultimately, money in my pocket.

You said lateness was an issue last year, did you raise this at the meeting? I'm curious as to what your colleague said.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

You said lateness was an issue last year, did you raise this at the meeting? I'm curious as to what your colleague said.

Yes. They said they would improve, and haven’t.

Will add, they weren’t under my leadership at the time. (Last year). When it wasn’t the best,

It was attendance too last year. Ie sick days etc.

 

[Beanstalk]

UPDATE!

We had a meeting with said employee one month ago, HR the lot, it turns out, the issue was a lack of communication from said employee, and we have now agreed targets and better communication methods etc

Fast forward one month and whilst the attitude is better, performance is still not that great, and recently, their attendance record has fallen behind. Which is a big issue from last year too. We understand they suffer a little with anxiety, which hasn’t helped, and we have to tread carefully with this, however, its also persistent lateness.

Furthermore this week, they were late yesterday, not much of an apology and usual excuse, didn’t make the time up after, it was 5mins. 1 or 10 mins, I think you should be seen to rectify the lateness. Today, I was taking this employee to Manchester Airport to visit a client of ours. I advised time of meet for the train, they then phoned running late and I am now visiting said client by myself. £124 train ticket to waste.

This employee has shown glimmers of hope in performances, but ultimately, they have also been out of desperation and this then has lead to rushing and making errors.

We are looking at disciplinary action now, I think I am at my tether and they need to go but we MUST make sure we’ve followed HR and employment law.

Just to add, all this tardiness effects our efficiency as a team and ultimately, money in my pocket.

Good to hear there was some positivity from approaching the situation in a by-the-book manner that allowed for better structure around the employee, and allowed you at the very least to agree a path forward with them.

It sounds as if your original concerns have been proven somewhat true unfortunately. Because of the work you've done with HR so far you're probably already on the road to getting this sorted without it affecting your reputation at all (at least internally). My advice, if (and more likely when) you escalate this, is to write down everything you deem to be an issue - dates and times of lateness especially - so that you can present a coherent, objective case of underperformance to the employee and if a PIP is needed, you are able to address the exact issues that stop the employee from showing more than just glimmers of hope in performance.

There is one of two results in this. Firstly, they understand where and how they've underperformed, accept the importance of being placed on a PIP and set specific targets that they need to follow. Secondly, they get the hint and move on to a new job before it damages their reputation.

Fingers crossed for the second option as its by far the easier one, but its also important to give people the benefit of the doubt and hope that they can improve. The first option isn't the end of the world.

 

[Chicken Run]

Yes. They said they would improve, and haven’t.

Will add, they weren’t under my leadership at the time. (Last year). When it wasn’t the best,

It was attendance too last year. Ie sick days etc.

This person has successfully whether planned (i doubt it) or not got themselves into a position of power and seem to be managing up, put them out of theirs and your companies misery and bin the off ffs.

 

[Littlemo]

Furthermore this week, they were late yesterday, not much of an apology and usual excuse, didn’t make the time up after, it was 5mins. 1 or 10 mins

I guess that this could be an accumulation of the employee’s behaviour but seriously, getting bent out of shape over being 5mins late sounds like you might be a bit OTT here.

Yes people shouldn’t be late but honestly, unless my guys are routinely 15+ mins late, if they are doing their work properly then I don’t care. Of course some sectors this can’t apply to like customer service where you need to be on the desk/phone etc so ignore me if that’s the case.

Nickle and diming your staff over little things like 5mins is always going to get backs up tbh, and will encourage people to become petty. Though clearly being late for things such as a train to a client visit is clearly unacceptable, so I don’t think you are wrong in respect to this employee. Just maybe something to think on more broadly.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

Good to hear there was some positivity from approaching the situation in a by-the-book manner that allowed for better structure around the employee, and allowed you at the very least to agree a path forward with them.

It sounds as if your original concerns have been proven somewhat true unfortunately. Because of the work you've done with HR so far you're probably already on the road to getting this sorted without it affecting your reputation at all (at least internally). My advice, if (and more likely when) you escalate this, is to write down everything you deem to be an issue - dates and times of lateness especially - so that you can present a coherent, objective case of underperformance to the employee and if a PIP is needed, you are able to address the exact issues that stop the employee from showing more than just glimmers of hope in performance.

There is one of two results in this. Firstly, they understand where and how they've underperformed, accept the importance of being placed on a PIP and set specific targets that they need to follow. Secondly, they get the hint and move on to a new job before it damages their reputation.

Fingers crossed for the second option as its by far the easier one, but its also important to give people the benefit of the doubt and hope that they can improve. The first option isn't the end of the world.

Agree with all of this.

I just want them gone now, its just a bloody rollercoaster of one minute there is hope, a little bit if performance, then its back to the norm of treading on eggshells and HR meetings.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

This person has successfully whether planned (i doubt it) or not got themselves into a position of power and seem to be managing up, put them out of theirs and your companies misery and bin the off ffs.

Sadly, thats how I am starting to feel too. Glad my company follows the right guidelines, but there has to be a time when enough is enough.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

I guess that this could be an accumulation of the employee’s behaviour but seriously, getting bent out of shape over being 5mins late sounds like you might be a bit OTT here.

Yes people shouldn’t be late but honestly, unless my guys are routinely 15+ mins late, if they are doing their work properly then I don’t care. Of course some sectors this can’t apply to like customer service where you need to be on the desk/phone etc so ignore me if that’s the case.

Nickle and diming your staff over little things like 5mins is always going to get backs up tbh, and will encourage people to become petty. Though clearly being late for things such as a train to a client visit is clearly unacceptable, so I don’t think you are wrong in respect to this employee. Just maybe something to think on more broadly.

I would tend to agree, but when it’s consistently late, defensive attitude and not great performance and now missing this, then it’s going to lead to serious sanctions I am afraid.

 

[Beanstalk]

Agree with all of this.

I just want them gone now, its just a bloody rollercoaster of one minute there is hope, a little bit if performance, then its back to the norm of treading on eggshells and HR meetings.

Completely understand the stress in it all. Very difficult to manage someone who isn't on the same page in terms of attitude.

At the same time, remember to rise above any of the frustrations and assume positive intent. From what you've written it seems like you are but it also doesn't really seem like the actual issue is anything malicious. At the very worst, if this employee does either leave, or the issue is escalated to a more difficult moment, you can keep your head held high knowing that you did your best by all parties. At the very least that's good for your mental health - everyone involved here is human after all.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I guess that this could be an accumulation of the employee’s behaviour but seriously, getting bent out of shape over being 5mins late sounds like you might be a bit OTT here.

Yes people shouldn’t be late but honestly, unless my guys are routinely 15+ mins late, if they are doing their work properly then I don’t care. Of course some sectors this can’t apply to like customer service where you need to be on the desk/phone etc so ignore me if that’s the case.

Nickle and diming your staff over little things like 5mins is always going to get backs up tbh, and will encourage people to become petty. Though clearly being late for things such as a train to a client visit is clearly unacceptable, so I don’t think you are wrong in respect to this employee. Just maybe something to think on more broadly.

And in addition I'll return to my previous advice .... PIP to manage the person out of the business.

 

[Sussax]

I guess that this could be an accumulation of the employee’s behaviour but seriously, getting bent out of shape over being 5mins late sounds like you might be a bit OTT here.

Yes people shouldn’t be late but honestly, unless my guys are routinely 15+ mins late, if they are doing their work properly then I don’t care. Of course some sectors this can’t apply to like customer service where you need to be on the desk/phone etc so ignore me if that’s the case.

Nickle and diming your staff over little things like 5mins is always going to get backs up tbh, and will encourage people to become petty. Though clearly being late for things such as a train to a client visit is clearly unacceptable, so I don’t think you are wrong in respect to this employee. Just maybe something to think on more broadly.

It's a matter of respect imo, both for the company and your colleagues to show up on time. I'm all for flexibility, I don't mind if my team come in an hour or two late or leave early, but would expect them to work the hours back some other time - otherwise, where does it end? Obviously outside factors always happen in respect to lateness and that is absolutely fine. But would expect some communication and sounds like the OPs employee is not showing that or that they care.